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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Sorry, Ben, But Judge Mukasey Can (and Should) Answer the Question
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Monday, October 29, 2007
Sorry, Ben, But Judge Mukasey Can (and Should) Answer the Question
Marty Lederman
Over in the New Republic, Ben Wittes agrees that it's virtually inconceivable that waterboarding is not torture, but nevertheless argues that Judge Mukasey would be within his rights in refusing to say so in response to Senate questions:
Comments:
Is there any previous example of Congress asking an AG nominee to provide an advisory legal opinion on an issue which has not been addressed by courts as the price of a nomination vote?
The 2004 memo could have begun and ended with footnote 18:
Despite extensive efforts to develop objective criteria for measuring pain, there is no clear, objective, consistent measurement. As one publication explains: Pain is a complex, subjective, perceptual phenomenon with a number of dimensions--intensity, quality, time course, impact, and personal meaning--that are uniquely experienced by each individual and, thus, can only be assessed indirectly. Pain is a subjective experience and there is no way to objectively quantify it. Consequently, assessment of a patient's pain depends on the patient's overt communications, both verbal and behavioral. Given pain's complexity, one must assess not only its somatic (sensory) component but also patients' moods, attitudes, coping efforts, resources, responses of family members, and the impact of pain on their lives. Dennis C. Turk, Assess the Person, Not Just the Pain, Pain: Clinical Updates, Sept. 1993 (emphasis added). This lack of clarity further complicates the effort to define "severe" pain or suffering. It would be far more accurate to state that, given our absolute inability to objectively quantify pain, DOJ (or the AG nominee) can not be expected to objectively interpret and apply the CAT to any interrogation technique including waterboarding. This whole exercise has a surreal "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" feel about it.
More that surreal feeling of watching someone talk about angels dancing, whilst shoving hot pins into a helpless detained German with the wrong last name.
For that matter, what is life and can we really say that killing someone is murder if the soul lives on? Ya - meet - Da. Really, the saddest thing is the observation that no one has to realistically be worried about being punished for engaging in torture of kidnapped protected persons. If that's what we've become as a nation and that's what our system of justice has become as an institution, it really doesn't matter what Mukasey says or does. It doesn't matter if they want to stick a child-predator cannibal in the slot if we really are at that point. And it looks like we are.
Prof. Lederman:
Naturally, then, the U.S. itself has long considered waterboarding to be torture and a war crime -- there was no dispute about this from at least 1901 until 2002 -- and if our enemies used such a technique on U.S. military personnel, no one would, in public debate, deny that such a technique is a form of unlawful torture. But it's not. It's just a neat and nifty way of effectively interrogating someone (it would be kind of pointless, after all, to just be giving people baths for the fun of it) that leavse no marks.... And, after all, that's just what the top experts in 'interrogation' have been looking for for quote a while. No rubber hoses to the soles of the feet, nosirree. You can do this free and clear of any visual feedback as to the ugliness of your soul ... and sleep like a baby at night (until the Terra-ists start "fighting us here" and decamp under our beds at eventide....)
[W]aterboarding obviously is torture prohibited by the federal torture statute, 18 USC 2340-2340A. OLC apparently advised otherwise -- but how could that be? After all, waterboarding is perhaps the classic, paradigmatic technique of acknowledge torture regimes throughout history, from the Spanish Inquisition to the Khmer Rouge. And as Human Rights Watch explains, the U.S. itself "has long considered waterboarding to be torture and a war crime.":
As early as 1901, a U.S. court martial sentenced Major Edwin Glenn to 10 years of hard labor for subjecting a suspected insurgent in the Philippines to the 'water cure.' After World War II, U.S. military commissions successfully prosecuted as war criminals several Japanese soldiers who subjected American prisoners to waterboarding. A U.S. army officer was court-martialed in February 1968 for helping to waterboard a prisoner in Vietnam. None of these generations old military cases applied the language used by the CAT. In fact, these defendants were not accused of violating any statutes prohibiting torture and no statutory definition of torture was used at all by these military courts. Instead, the courts came up their own subjective opinions of what was and was not torture under military law. For example, the military records of the 1901 Glenn courts martial indicate that the sole charge was conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, which is the military catchall disciplinary provision that would not be constitutional if applied to civilians. Concluding that the US "cannot afford to sanction" the "water cure," Glenn was slapped on the wrist by being suspended from command for all of a month and fined $50 (not sentenced to 10 years prison as HRW claims). There was no discussion of the "water cure" inflicted "severe pain" or pain of any kind. Consequently, this case is useless as a guide to applying the CAT's definition of torture. The war crimes prosecution of the Japanese similarly did not apply any torture statute or definition. Rather, the military tried the Japanese for generic war crimes and offered a factual basis which commingled waterboarding among far more serious acts all the way through murder. There was no discussion of the "water cure" inflicted "severe pain" or pain of any kind. Consequently, these cases are similarly useless as a guide to applying the CAT's definition of torture.
Bart, the sophistry in this debate is all on your side. ANY form of intentional abuse is torture, and anyone who would claim otherwise is just a liar and a hypocrite trying to justify the use of torture. There's no need to split hairs over the meaning of the torture statute: assault and kidnapping are crimes too.
"Bart" DePalma and his friggin' "advisory opinion" crapola:
Is there any previous example of Congress asking an AG nominee to provide an advisory legal opinion.... Outside of the fact that you're wrong even there, "Bart", the so-called "advisory opinion" rule applies to courts under the Article III "cases and controversies" language. In fact, it is one of the major jobs of lawyers to provide "advisory opinions".... Ummm, not that you'd be expected to know that, "Bart".... Cheers,
More "Bart" horse-apples explained for the sentient:
"... Consequently, assessment of a patient's pain depends on the patient's overt communications, both verbal and behavioral. Given pain's complexity, one must assess not only its somatic (sensory) component but also patients' moods, attitudes, coping efforts, resources, responses of family members, and the impact of pain on their lives." Dennis C. Turk, Assess the Person, Not Just the Pain, Pain: Clinical Updates, Sept. 1993 (emphasis added). It would be far more accurate to state that, given our absolute inability to objectively quantify pain, ... ... we should just say it doesn't exist. What we don't know won't hurt ... ummm, us, at least. Cheers,
Bart, the sophistry in this debate is all on your side. ANY form of intentional abuse is torture, and anyone who would claim otherwise is just a liar and a hypocrite trying to justify the use of torture. There's no need to split hairs over the meaning of the torture statute: assault and kidnapping are crimes too.
Arne, Bart: Please, focus on the post and the issues, not on Bart. The fact that he ignores the statute's prohibition on severe physical suffering, and that he concludes that "DOJ (or the AG nominee) cannot be expected to objectively interpret and apply the CAT to any interrogation technique," is all one needs to know about Bart. Move on.
marty:
Arne, Bart: Please, focus on the post and the issues, not on Bart. The fact that he ignores the statute's prohibition on severe physical suffering, and that he concludes that "DOJ (or the AG nominee) cannot be expected to objectively interpret and apply the CAT to any interrogation technique," is all one needs to know about Bart. Move on. Ooooo, that hurt... :::rolls eyes::: You claimed that it is somehow obvious that the definition of torture in the statute includes waterboarding. My point was that, if you cannot objectively define severe pain, you cannot objectively define what torture under the language of the statute. Your observations concerning physical suffering do not change this fact in the least. In their common usage, the terms "pain" and "suffering" are essentially analogous. Suffering is simply the state of experiencing pain. Consequently, because one cannot objectively define "severe pain," one similarly cannot objectively define the "severe pain" being suffered. In short, there is no need to follow you down your rabbit hole concerning whether DoJ properly interpreted the term "suffering" to encompass the passage of time and I did not waste my time doing so. However, since you brought it up again like a dog gnawing on his favorite bone, I will be pleased to address your argument. DoJ makes a perfectly reasonable analysis of the terms pain and suffering in its 2004 memorandum. "Pain" is a sensation and "suffering" is the state of experiencing the sensation of pain, which implies the passage of some measurable length of time. The use of the term "prolonged" is as good a term as any other for the passage of time. As is your wont, you simply dismissed the DoJ argument out of hand without providing a reasonable alternative to the passage of time which distinguishes the terms pain and suffering and makes sense of Congress' use of the disjunctive. That, Marty, is all one needs to know about you. As is also your wont, I expect you to shut down the comment section to avoid having to address my argument.
It seems to me to be quite ludicrous to argue that a technique that so effectively produces such acute sensations of terror and imminent death that the victim cannot last more than a minute or two is not torture because the sensation did not last long enough...
It also defies belief that someone would argue that a simulated drowning cannot be objectively quantified as severe pain given the guttural, instinctual terror it has produced in every victim. When interrogators are impressed that KSM (I think) lasted something like 3 minutes, you have all the evidence you need to know as to whether waterboarding "objectively" inflicts severe pain.
Prof. Lederman:
As per your wish, I will defer WRT the torturous and prolonged arguments of "Bart"; it is true they've been addressed before and require restatement to only 24% of the potential readership. My first comment addressed your analysis of what the revised opinions concluded, but I went to motive: They are writing it out because it "works"!!! I think that Mukasey is also reluctant to dismiss waterboarding as torture a priori for similar reasons; he's shown a proclivity for ... ummm, "expediency" ... in previous rulings even as a judge: "Round 'em up and sort 'em out later" ... and "I don't see any marks <*wink-wink*> come to mind. I should note that this "expediency" is the cornerstone of pretty much all 'legal' defences of such practises. This needs to be pointed out. While interrogation is the purpose of such techniques, it is also the bellwether for the 'legality' of such: There is no doubt that such techniques would be absolutely condemned as unarguably illegal by nearly everyone except the most psychopathic and/or sociopathic personalities if engaged in 'gratuitously' or for 'pleasure' (if done for purposes of 'punishment', that would be a different issue, but then the Eighth Amendment would seem to be an absolute bar). So why, when the purpose is "intelligence gathering", are the same procedures 'legal'? I'd reiterate what's been said by many: There is no exception in the law of war and in the Constitution or U.S. statutory law for "intelligence gathering" as being a permissible exception to the ban on torture/CIDT. Cheers,
mike said...
It also defies belief that someone would argue that a simulated drowning cannot be objectively quantified as severe pain given the guttural, instinctual terror it has produced in every victim. When interrogators are impressed that KSM (I think) lasted something like 3 minutes, you have all the evidence you need to know as to whether waterboarding "objectively" inflicts severe pain. Terror is not physical pain. Therefore, you have to determine whether it falls under the statutory definition of "severe mental pain and suffering," which is defined in pertinent part as "the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from... the threat of imminent death..." Because waterboarding is brief and transient, it does not appear to fall under this definition. This is why Marty is attempting to argue that waterboarding causes severe physical suffering which does not require the passage of time. The problems with Marty's argument are two fold: 1) Severe physical suffering is the state of experiencing severe pain and water boarding does not cause significant physical pain. 2) Because suffering is an ongoing state, this implies a passage of time. Water boarding is very brief. Relying upon the CAT statute is a losing proposition. No one can objectively define what the statute covers and multiple OLCs and other government attorneys have tried. Those who claim otherwise are simply being disingenuous. If you think that waterboarding or any other technique should be included as a torture forbidden by the CTA, then simply argue that Congress should amend the definition of torture to expressly include them.
That water-boarding is "torture" as well as "cruel" treatment and even a tactic to produce "terror" in violation of international law -- as are many other tactics authorized by President Bush, former Sec. Rumsfeld, et al.; and abetted by various memo writers -- see, e.g., Paust, Beyond the Law: The Bush Administration's Unlawful Responses in the "War" on Terror (Cambridge University Press 2007), available at www.cambridge.org/us
JJP
Professor Lederman, would you please stop claiming that it is unconstitutional to convict a person for conduct engaged in as a result of reasonable reliance on an OLC opinion?
Nothing in the text or history of the Due Process Clause requires an advice of counsel defense. In fact, with respect to malum prohibitum offenses, no mental state is required at all, whereas with malum in se offenses, the only mental state required is negligence as to the FACTUAL elements. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse, and this was established at the time the Due Process Clause was enacted and is still the case now. Further, there isn't any special doctrine that makes the OLC constitutionally any more important than any other lawyer. The OLC, just like any other lawyer, may provide bad legal advice. It may provide inapplicable legal advice. It may provide legal advice that doesn't effectively discourage illegal conduct. In all such cases, we hold clients responsible when they go ahead and break the law after receiving lousy legal advice. The principle that there is some sort of Due Process violation here is nothing more than wishful thinking by people in the OLC.
Terror is not physical pain.....
"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." "The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things. "The question is, which is to be master -- that's all." From the "master" himself, C.L. Dodgson. But then: If the point is [only] to cause terror, wouldn't the perpetrator be a terrorist? Cheers,
Terror is not physical pain. Therefore, you have to determine whether it falls under the statutory definition of "severe mental pain and suffering," which is defined in pertinent part as "the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from... the threat of imminent death..."
Because waterboarding is brief and transient, it does not appear to fall under this definition. No. That does not follow. If the (transient) physical pain (or the transient threat of death) results in "prolonged mental harm" (e.g., PTSD), then it would seem that even this definition is satisfied under this very language. There is no requirement in the language that the "threat of imminent death" be "prolonged". English 101. Cheers,
Arne Langsetmo said...
BD: Terror is not physical pain. Therefore, you have to determine whether it falls under the statutory definition of "severe mental pain and suffering," which is defined in pertinent part as "the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from... the threat of imminent death..." Because waterboarding is brief and transient, it does not appear to fall under this definition. arne: No. That does not follow. If the (transient) physical pain (or the transient threat of death) results in "prolonged mental harm" (e.g., PTSD), then it would seem that even this definition is satisfied under this very language. There is no requirement in the language that the "threat of imminent death" be "prolonged". You make a good point so far as it goes. However, there is no science of which I am aware which demonstrates a statistically significant causal relationship between 1-2 minutes of water boarding and PTSD or any other prolonged mental harm. Unsubstantiated claims by "experts" are not science, so do not even go there. It appears that the only mental harm is the 1-2 minutes of panic during the waterboarding, which cannot be fairly called prolonged.
Dilan said...
Professor Lederman, would you please stop claiming that it is unconstitutional to convict a person for conduct engaged in as a result of reasonable reliance on an OLC opinion? Nothing in the text or history of the Due Process Clause requires an advice of counsel defense This is why I have been arguing that Congress needs to specify what is prohibited in the legislation. All an OLC, DoD or CIA attorney can do is guess whether an interrogation technique or combination of techniques are allowed by the CAT and the war fighters relying upon that advice can be imprisoned if some later prosecutor and court disagrees. The present law does not address many of your concerns about the techniques being used and does not give our war fighters any guidance as to what they should be doing.
Unsubstantiated claims by "experts" are not science, so do not even go there....
"... and there is no global warming and the earth could be 6000 years old, we really don't know...." When you get your name on a peer-reviewed, published paper, "Bart", I'll listen to what you have to say about what "science" is and isn't.... Cheers,
"Bart" DePalma:
All an OLC, DoD or CIA attorney can do is guess whether an interrogation technique or combination of techniques are allowed by the CAT and the war fighters relying upon that advice can be imprisoned if some later prosecutor and court disagrees.... Hell, it's worse than that. Because everyone is required to obey the entirety of Title 18, Part 1 (all hundred or so chapters of it) under threat of fines or even imprisonment, and most of us don't even have the luxury of a full-time in-house legal counsel staff to advise us as the intricacies and nuances of this mass of law. And don't even talk to me about state codes.... It's getting to the point where I'm afraid of even getting out of bed.... Cheers,
For those that would like to discuss whether the definition of "torture" needs further refinement, there's now a new blog spot for doing just that. Take it away, folks. Please. Yes, you too.
Cheers, thanks so much i like very so much your post حلي الاوريو الفطر الهندي صور تورتة حلى قهوه طريقة عمل السينابون طريقة عمل بلح الشام بيتزا هت كيكة الزبادي حلا سهل صور كيك عجينة العشر دقائق طريقة عمل الدونات طريقة عمل البان كيك طريقة عمل الكنافة طريقة عمل البسبوسة طريقة عمل الكيك طريقة عمل عجينة البيتزا فوائد القرفه
29 US CASES, 3 int'l court decisions, 7 US Dept. Of State HILLARY Country Reports already recognised that waterboarding or related suffocation by water is torture. In any event cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment are also proscribed
I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass.
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