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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts What Do the OLC Opinions Justifying Waterboarding Look Like?
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Saturday, October 27, 2007
What Do the OLC Opinions Justifying Waterboarding Look Like?
Marty Lederman
Probably something like this.
Comments:
The better words to italicize in the Price quotes, I'd submit, are "and" and "or."
The extremely obvious difference between "A, B, and C" and "A, B, or C," evident to lay readers as well as lawyers, did not escape McCarthy when he read Price or when he deliberately misstated what it said.
Thanks for reminding me, Anderson. I meant to emphasize the conjunctive/disjunctive distinction, and more, from Price, and have amended the post accordingly.
'The United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be a deliberate and calculated act of an extremely cruel and inhuman nature, specifically intended to inflict excruciating and agonizing physical or mental pain or suffering.'
"excruciating and agonizing physical . . . suffering." Gosh, that describes waterboarding to a "t," doesn't it? Only if you have the pain threshold of an infant. Waterbording involves no physical pain whatsoever and only transient mental panic lasting a moment or two. There is absolutely nothing in this technique which can be fairly considered "excruciating and agonizing." The Senate report language is hardly helpful to your argument. Quite, the opposite. Indeed, the Senate report language of "excruciating and agonizing physical or mental pain or suffering" suggests a far higher threshold of pain than does the statutory language of "severe physical and mental pain." "Excruciating and agonizing" are terms far more associated with Yoo's pain threshold of of dismemberment and organ failure. Instead, like the 2004 OLC opinion itself, more recent OLC opinions likely quote Price only for what it actually (and uncontroversially) says, namely, that "[t]he more intense, lasting, or heinous the agony, the more likely it is to be torture." Unlike the 2004 OLC memo, Price does not wrongly hold (as McCarthy suggests) that the agony must be "lasting" in order for the technique to constitute torture. How do you grammatically get to that result? "The more intense, lasting, or heinous the agony, the more likely it is to be torture." This sentence has two parallel clauses which imply that "agony" (not mere pain) which just crosses the threshold of being "intense, lasting or heinous" is not "torture." Instead, the more "intense, lasting or heinous" the "agony," the more likely it might finally cross into the realm of "torture," which the Senate defines as "excruciating and agonizing."
Waterbording involves no physical pain whatsoever
So the experience of drowning is not "painful"? Gasping for breath is not "painful"? How about putting a pillow over KSM's face, and releasing it only when the attending physician calculates that brain damage is imminent? No "pain" there?
Bart:
Waterbording[sic] involves no physical pain whatsoever and only transient mental panic lasting a moment or two. However, this merely "transient mental panic" is sufficient to induce confessions from hardened terrorist killers. That must be one heck of a panic attack. Having undergone such involuntary sensation due to a physical blow, and having watched my wife suffer from this due to incipient asphyxiation caused by a gas leak, the fear of suffocation is not transient, and not merely panic--it is a deep-seated, traumatic fear that can have long-lasting impact on your mental state. She also got to watch her father suffer from that for years due to emphysema. And if you add the presence of persons who are willing to resubmit you to such sensations repeatedly without your permission.... Unless of course, you do not have the pain tolerance of an infant, but an adult, so we are apparently being accused of being less than children (and since they terrorists folded under such treatment, so are they) compared to the true adults like Bart. Going back to the point, since inability to breathe is a symptom of emphysema, which is basically due to the failure of a set of organs (the lungs), then waterboarding should be considered to reach the legal threshold of suffering from the pain (effects) of major organ failure. Unless, of course, you do not consider the lungs to be organs. I didn't think they redacted the biology textbooks that much yet.
Fraud Guy said...
Bart: Waterbording[sic] involves no physical pain whatsoever and only transient mental panic lasting a moment or two. However, this merely "transient mental panic" is sufficient to induce confessions from hardened terrorist killers. That must be one heck of a panic attack. Interrogations are contests of wills. Go Google the CIA interrogation manual. They spend a great deal of time distinguishing between the effectiveness of coercive techniques in breaking the will of interrogated persons and the counter productive effects of torture to inflict pain, which often does not work. Having undergone such involuntary sensation due to a physical blow, and having watched my wife suffer from this due to incipient asphyxiation caused by a gas leak, the fear of suffocation is not transient, and not merely panic--it is a deep-seated, traumatic fear that can have long-lasting impact on your mental state. Not for average person and definitely not for a trained and hardened soldier or terrorist. I almost drowned as a child. It lasted longer than waterboarding, it was not painful and I did not suffer long lasting trauma. Torture is far more than any "impact on your mental state." Rather, the impact on your mental state must reach the threshold of "excruciating and agonizing...mental pain or suffering." A moment or two of panic simply does not get close. She also got to watch her father suffer from that for years due to emphysema. Weaterboarding lasts for a moment or two. Emphysema is far worse and is an actual (not simulated) long term drowning.
Bart,
The CIA may have improved the water torture from the days of the Inquisition, so that it doesn't cause pain in addition to the fear of drowning and helplessness. But, back then it was acceptable to use torture to determine the guilt or innocence of a suspect. And the point of my examples was, that the experience of being unable to breathe is torturous, even if you know the cause and have the hope or expectation of being able to breathe. For the emphysema sufferer (my wife's father), who served in WWII and was a physically tough man, it was so bad he wanted to be taken off life support. And regarding your exemplary toughened soldiers and determined terrorists; IIRC, you crowed about how the water torture was used to break one suspected terrorist within two minutes after less coercive methods failed. From "momentary panic". Again--that must be one hell of a momentary panic attack, unlike your cool and collected handling of your near drowning as a child. I guess he must "have [had] the pain threshold of an infant" compared to you. Finally, the torture is not about inflicting pain, even though you yourself has said that some situations that strongly resemble coercive techniques that you endured in service to your country were extremely painful and potentially debilitating, yet you still support their use. So we torture to win a "contest of wills"? I guess our side has given up on winning hearts and minds and is trying for a triumph of will, then.
Again, Bart, Basoglu's empirical studies with actual torture victims (and not hypothetical ones or victims of APC-driving pseudo-torture) suggest otherwise:
Some of the enhanced techniques, particularly waterboarding,hitting, induced hypothermia, and stress positions are capable of causing “severe” or “serious” physical pain and suffering, the intentional infliction of which violates the “torture” and “cruel or inhuman treatment” provisions of the WCA. Each of the techniques can also cause significant psychological harm. According to one recent study, in fact, the significance of the harm caused by non-physical, psychological abuse is virtually identical to the significance of the harm caused by physical abuse. Source: Physicians for Human Rights Study cited: M. Basoglu, et al., Torture vs Other Cruel, Inhuman, and Degrading Treatment: Is the Distinction Real or Apparent? 64 Archives Gen. Psychiatry 277(2007).
"Bart" DePalma generously agrees that waterboarding infants is illegal:
[Prof. Lederman]: "excruciating and agonizing physical . . . suffering." Gosh, that describes waterboarding to a "t," doesn't it? ["Bart"]: Only if you have the pain threshold of an infant. For the rest of us, waterboarding is no problemo; we just shake it off as the pranks of a fraternity brother. Which is why it has been treated as torture for centuries, prosecuted as a war crime, and (reputedly) reliably produces "results" in a very short period of time where more conventional methods that are inarguably "torture" might have taken a day or two. You know, it's perfect: it works, leaves no marks, doesn't require a lot of time and screaming; we're always in the market for 'better' "interrogation techniques".... Of course, we know that Giuliani's up to the challenge of facing such "pranks", as he's withstood the rigours of campaigning for months now.... Sick, sick, sick I tell ya, these RW authoritarians; just waiting for their double-lightning-bolt collar tabs.... Cheers,
"Bart" DePalma:
Interrogations are contests of wills. And then when the interrogator 'succeeds', that would be a "triumph of the will", then, right? Cheers, P.S.: "Bart" apparently watches too much telly (or reads too many comic books).
[Fraud Guy]: Having undergone such involuntary sensation due to a physical blow, and having watched my wife suffer from this due to incipient asphyxiation caused by a gas leak, the fear of suffocation is not transient, and not merely panic--it is a deep-seated, traumatic fear that can have long-lasting impact on your mental state.
["Bart"]: Not for average person ... "Bart"'s speaking from personal experience, it seems; the typical RWA Republican foamer in his social circle that constitutes his "average person" would seem to be pretty much brain-dead with only the reptilian brain (still) functioning, and be incapable of such things as "terror".... Cheers,
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.
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