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Monday, November 21, 2005
CIA "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" Revealed
Marty Lederman
On Friday, ABC News broke a very important story; and yet it seems that no one has noticed (or perhaps no one cares).
Comments:
Seems that a lot of the mischief can be accomplished through a very narrow reading of specific intent. "Of course we didn't intend for Detainee X to die of a heart attack when we waterboarded him! Even though we knew he had a weak heart, that wasn't what we intended." Likewise with belly-slapping or long-time standing, which could clearly cause serious injury to an "eggshell skull" detainee.
Basically, no matter what happens to a detainee, as long as the injuries can be explained through linkage to one of these techniques, the interrogators can claim to be off the hook because they weren't specifically trying to achieve the result they got. But my question is this: how is it legal to transport a prisoner outside of the geographic jurisdiction of US law with the specific intent of engaging in acts against that prisoner that US law prohibits?
"On Friday, ABC News broke a very important story; and yet it seems that no one has noticed (or perhaps no one cares)."
92 links here, actually, and Technorati misses a lot of stuff. See also here and here, where people were discussing it on Saturday.
Julie, this is the same crowd that thinks you don't intend to blow a CIA operative's cover if you call her "Joe Wilson's wife" instead of "Valerie Plame."
They just aren't very bright. And while I'm commenting, you'll all be relieved to know that Marty is alarmed over nothing, because Porter Goss says the CIA doesn't torture people. (Pardon the self-linking, as NYT links go bad faster than fresh milk.)
some of the important news in the world is now ccunted by number of links..so its hard to see the latest important news nowadays,,so you see the most intersting news in the world not important news.
I can just imagine a non-com assigned to this task with his/her clipboard handy with the DoD list of the steps to be taken in the interrogation, checking them off, to make sure of strict compliance with the sanctioned interrogation protocol - at least the first few times - before improvisation takes over if and when the sanctioned steps fail to get the desired results. Since such improvization seems to be foreseeable, then those added steps could also be deemed sanctioned by the non-com's superiors.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/400rhqav.asp?pg=2
Charles Krauthammer has a very well thought out article on the subject. Waterboarding is torture. I think step five (hypothermic treatment) is actually worse than waterboarding (it is apparently far more life threatening and dangerous). But it does not "shock my conscience" for the CIA to use coercive force to get high level al Qaeda leadership to give up information to thwart future terrorist attacks. Certainly step four is legitmate--unless you want to see more innocent people die at the hands of al Qaeda murderers. If you think no coercive force is allowed against high ranking al Qaeda--why even capture them. We are better off just killing them.
And Krauthammer agrees (as do I) that we should not have the DoD engaging in any coercive interrogations. Lead that to professionals and only to high level/high value al Qaeda and terrorist threats. If you think it is moral to fight al Qaeda with your hands tied behind your back, remember that will almost certainly result in innocent people getting killed as a result.
I don't normally resort to name-calling, but Charles Krauthammer does nothing but carry water for the Bush Administration 24-7. He's one of these guys who the media pretends to be a great conservative intellectual thinker but who actually simply says whatever Karl Rove wants him to say.
That said, his specific argument is, of course, bunk. First, he ignores the fact that torture is already illegal. It is true, as Marty Lederman points out, that we ratified the Torture Convention with reservations and understandings. Nonetheless, we ratified it, and the Torture Convention is very specific that there can be no justification for torture. That's right, NO justification. Doesn't matter if someone's going to blow up the entire world with antimatter weapons. Actual torture is illegal. (The argument, as noted by Lederman, is as to what constitutes actual torture.) So Krauthammer's central point-- that everyone accepts torture in the ticking bomb scenario-- is not only incorrect, but precisely contrary to the settled understanding of international law and the official position of the United States government for three administrations, as reflected in a signed, ratified, and statutorily executed treaty. This, by the way, is why Bush 43 swears we do not torture. He knows if he argues the ticking bomb scenario he will be admitting that the US is violating the treaty. If you support allowing torture in the ticking bomb situation, you may ask "how could this have happened?". Simple. EVERYONE who wants to torture asserts the ticking bomb scenario. It's the standard excuse given. And invariably, it comes to light that the ensuing torture did not involve a ticking bomb. And I might add, that has happened here. We may well be torturing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. But we know we tortured at Abu Graib, and at Guantanamo, and elsewhere, and we know that many of the people we tortured were either completely innocent or did not identify the location of anything analogous to a ticking bomb. We signed a treaty banning torture in the ticking bomb situation because this is exactly what happened when Israel tortured, and when Argentina tortured, and when everyone else tortured. It was never controlled. It always went down the slippery slope. Unsurprisingly, we went down it too. Second, neither Krauthammer nor anyone else actually knows whether we have obtained any good intelligence from torture. I would argue that both given the Bush Administration's demonstrated penchant for lying its butt off (something Krauthammer will never admit) and given the fact that they love trumpeting their alleged successes (remember Ashcroft's press conference on Jose Padilla), the governing inference should be that we HAVEN'T stopped any terrorist plots through torture. But the point is, even if we have, Krauthammer has no idea. His argument is completely theoretical-- "if we stopped a ticking bomb, this would be OK", but his conclusion-- that it IS OK, doesn't follow unless he can actually pointed to something that we thwarted. Finally, I have to say one other thing-- it is the height of duplicity that Bush has his surrogates like Krauthammer and Limbaugh make an argument that he doesn't have the guts to make himself. If he really thinks that torture is OK, he should say it, and suffer the consequences. But of course, George W. Bush never has little actual courage in his life, so why start now?
We had better keep in mind that, if we accept the "ticking bomb" (aka the "doomsday") scenario, we had better define just what its limits are. Torture of POWs was flatly illegal, uner all circumstances, in the only two previous wars in which the US ws actually fighting for its continued existence: the Civil War and WW II. It was kept illegal for Japanese POWs during the latter war despite the fact that Japan not only refused to reciprocate but routinly subjected our POWs to hideous atrocities -- and despite the fact that the American public would unquestionably have approved its use. Why? because the Roosevelt Administration wanted postwar Japan to be an unoccupied but non-hostile country, and knew damn well that this would be hugely more difficult if we had tortured Japanese POws. Now consider how much more important this latter factor is in the case of the Moslem world, which we can't occupy even temporarily, and in which the opinion of individual Moslems is more important than if we were in a war only against a dictatorial government.
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So: that "ticking bomb" had better be a goddamn big one for torture to be allowed in this war. Is there anything short of an attack that would kill thousands of Americans -- or tens of thousands -- that would possibly qualify? Not that I can see. At an absolute minimum, the decision as to whether torture (or semi-torture, or whatever the hell you call it) should be used must be made by not just one man -- including the President -- but by a supermajority of a group of men, not all of them appointed by the same President.
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Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008) Neil Netanel, Copyright's Paradox (Oxford Univ. Press 2008)
David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007) Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007)
Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007)
Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006)
Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006)
Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006)
Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005)
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