Balkinization  

Tuesday, December 08, 2015

The only relevant question at the next debate

Sandy Levinson

The only relevant question at the next Republican debate is 'Would you really  be willing to campaign and vote for Donald Trump to be President of the United States if he received the Republican nomination?"  Anyone who answers "yes" is a scoundrel who should be disqualified from further consideration.  It is as if, say, Hubert Humphrey pledged to support George Wallace if Wallace received the Democratic nomination.  At some point, one has to say no, and that point has certainly been achieved with Donald Trump.  For Paul Ryan to bleat that Donald Trump would be a better president than Hillary Clinton is all you need to know about the gravitas of the Janesville Speaker.

After all, the very first question asked Donald Trump in the first debate was whether he would accept the verdict of the Republican primaries, and after some hesitation he seemed to say yes.  But, of course, everybody treated that as simply a way to assure that he wouldn't run a third-party (which he probably will if he feels treated "unfairly" by Republicans like Karl Rove and Dick Cheney who are actually blowing the whistle on him.

Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank has a strong column comparing Trump to Mussolini.  The most relevant passages, especially relevant for those who have chastised me for calling Trump a fascist, are as follows:

A couple of weeks ago, after Trump said he would consider forcing Muslims in the United States to register in a database, the conservative military historian Max Boot tweeted: “Trump is a fascist. And that’s not a term I use loosely or often. But he’s earned it.”
Trump uses many of the fascist’s tools: a contempt for facts, spreading a pervasive sense of fear and overwhelming crisis, portraying his backers as victims, assigning blame to foreign or alien actors and suggesting only his powerful personality can transcend the crisis. He endorsed the violence done to a dissenter at one of his rallies, and he now floats the idea of making entry to the United States contingent on religion.
Are Republican "leaders" really willing to profess that they would blithely support such a man to be President of the United States?  Recall that Alexander Hamilton helped to engineer the election of Thomas Jefferson, whose politics he despised, because he believed that Aaron Burr was totally unscrupulous and without the republican character necessary to be President.  

Comments:

That's the only relevant question at the Republican debate, in about the same way as "Are you willing to vote and campaign for either a known criminal or an unrepentant communist" is the only relevant question at the next Democratic debate. A good question, and certainly on point, but not one that you'd actually expect to be asked.

Or to put it another way, Democrats don't get to chose the only relevant question at Republican debates, any more than Republicans get to chose the only relevant question at Democratic debates.

Oh, and did you even read your link? You said Trump wants a database of "Muslims in the US", and to prove it linked to a post whose headline was, "Donald Trump says he ‘absolutely’ wants a database of Syrian refugees"

Now, granted most of the Syrian refugees are Muslims, in fact, Christians, the victims of an ongoing genocide in Syria, are under-represented among them. (Jews are entirely absent, but that's because Syria finished genociding them.) But a database of Syrian refuges is still not the same as a database of Muslims in the US.

And I expect you damned well know it.

All you're demonstrating here is that Trumps opponents have a fascist's contempt for the facts. When you have to tell lies about somebody to attack them, that suggests you don't have any good basis for attacking them.
 

Brett is right. Republicans should be free to nominate the most racist piece of crap that they can find. In fact, I encourage them to do so.
 

In point of fact, Republicans are categorically incapable of nominating somebody who Democrats won't claim is a racist. Short of running a fusion ticket with the Democratic party, that Democrats will declare the Republican candidate a racist is inevitable.

To Democrats, racism isn't about race. (Islam is a religion, not a race.) It's about disagreeing with them.
 

To Democrats, racism isn't about race. (Islam is a religion, not a race.) It's about disagreeing with them.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 10:12 AM


What Democrats believe isn't really for you to decide.

 

That's quite true, BartBuster. It's also true that Democrats don't get to define "racism" to be anything they don't like. Or rather, you can, (And do!) but nobody is under any obligation to accept the new definition.

You call everybody you don't like a "racist", you should hardly be shocked that people stop caring who you think is a racist.
 

You call everybody you don't like a "racist", you should hardly be shocked that people stop caring who you think is a racist.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 10:38 AM


And I would definitely encourage you to continue not to care. Go ahead and nominate the most anti brown skinned refugee non racist that you can find. Just don't be shocked when everyone else thinks that you're a bunch of racists.
 

With respect to Hamilton's "principled" actions, perhaps the other Republican presidential candidates are aware of Burr's eventual "revenge." With such a large number of candidates, not unlike coalitions in foreign policy, no one is prepared to act on such principle without assurances that the others are by his/her side. While many of these candidates agree with respect to Trump, each candidate's second agenda is his/her own candidacy, so they await some other hero..

Personally, I don't think Trump would go the third party route, at least with his own money. The bigger threat to the GOP would be diminished voter turnout in the general election by disgruntled Trump supporters.
 

Trump is not being labeled a racist in the "anything they [Democrats] don't like" sense of the word here, particularly to the degree that various Republicans are so labeling him. He is thought -- ymmv -- to have crossed a certain line here objectively speaking. BB's suggestion is cynically appealing but in practice is far from without problems. When, e.g., people are beaten up by those encouraged by Trump's rhetoric, I worry about such a thing.
 

BB's suggestion is cynically appealing but in practice is far from without problems. When, e.g., people are beaten up by those encouraged by Trump's rhetoric, I worry about such a thing.
# posted by Blogger Joe : 2:40 PM


I'm not suggesting that people should just sit back and let racists walk all over them. But trying to convince people that what they're doing is racist and they should not do it appears to be utterly pointless. They either don't agree that it's racist, and can't be convinced otherwise, or they don't care. At least if they're openly racist it's difficult for most people to pretend otherwise.
 

When Cheney starts saying you crossed a line, I think you have reached a new low/high (however you look at it). In that sense, they do care, and some minimum standards might be advanced. The alternatives (the "Trump" or "Carson" vote will go to Cruz ... who is horrible in various ways) leave a lot to be desired, obviously. But, there is bad and there is BAD, and Trump is the latter (or BAD with a somewhat bigger font).

People do at times hope for the worse candidate to be the nominee and this can be a productive thing on a cynical level. At times, one party eggs on or in other ways advances that nominee. But, Trump is a certain level of dangerous here, not like "I'm not a witch" or "real rape" type candidates of recent past. This is why certain serious people, like people out of the Obama White House, are upping the ant-Trump talk.
 

Rachel Maddow suggests Trump is being self-destructive.

I can believe that he deep down knows he doesn't have the votes to win the nomination (but very well can split the vote in a way making him a kingmaker of sorts) & doesn't want to start losing primaries by big margins or something (as he might in various states). Running for President is also hard, and it surprises me a bit he is still around. So, he might be looking for an excuse to get out, blame the party for "pushing him" or "not treating him fairly" etc.

Who knows. I also guess a third party race is not likely. But, it would be dangerous. The Republicans will likely need to win a few close states and as we saw in 2000, even a tiny sliver can matter there.


 

I think the only reason people like Cheney are speaking out now is because Trump is saying the things out loud that the GOP establishment would really prefer to be implied with a wink. Trump isn't all that different from the rest of the GOP candidates. Trump is just more outspoken. He's telling the GOP base what it wants to hear. I think it's great for every American to see what the GOP base really wants to hear.
 

Blogger Joe said...
Rachel Maddow suggests Trump is being self-destructive.


He's failing at it. Every time he start saying racist bigoted crap his poll numbers go up.
 

"But trying to convince people that what they're doing is racist and they should not do it appears to be utterly pointless."

It's especially pointless when nothing they're saying has anything to do with race.

"Mexican" is a nationality. "Muslim" is a religion/ideology. You could argue that Trump is bigoted on either score, and it still wouldn't make him a "racist". Maybe you should find a few new epithets, instead of using the same one for everything?

"I think the only reason people like Cheney are speaking out now is because Trump is saying the things out loud that the GOP establishment would really prefer to be implied with a wink."

Close. He's saying things that the party establishment would rather not be a topic of discussion on ANY level, because they'd prefer to screw their base over on immigration, know the base doesn't like it, and so don't want the topic to be talked about at all.

But, close.
 

Close. He's saying things that the party establishment would rather not be a topic of discussion on ANY level, because they'd prefer to screw their base over on immigration, know the base doesn't like it, and so don't want the topic to be talked about at all.

But, close.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 3:43 PM


Does the KKK have a candidate that you could vote for?
 

Because I'm almost certain that your views on immigration match up with the KKK's views on immigration like 2 peas in a pod.
 

Obviously, I'm talking about the Christian wing of the KKK, and not the racist wing.
 

;)
 

Of course Brett is conscious of race when it comes to his Asian/American (Filipino) son. Go back to the thread on the Fisher case of a couple of years ago where he expressed concerns that UTX program was discriminatory of Asian/Americans (even though the two leading Asian/American organizations favored the UTX program. Brett is not colorblind.
 

Brett is particular on the use of "race" though if people called Trump a bigot, a fair bet the argument would be Democrats use that term loosely. Glasshouses/stones on tired usage.

The term "race" has traditionally been used broadly to include Mexicans. And, in effect, once you target someone Mexican or Muslim, racism is furthered, given who tends to be the target of such actions.

Cheney et. al. has certain basic standards about things (his national security extremism doesn't change this) though Trump's rhetoric being politically dangerous to the party's long term interests factors in too. Pragmatical concerns is one check on our abuses.


 

"The term "race" has traditionally been used broadly to include Mexicans."

And "it's" has traditionally been used as a possessive. Your point?

The point here, Shag, is that I do, as a matter of fact, want the government to be utterly color blind. I get accused of being a racist for insisting that the government should not discriminate on the basis of race. That's how crazy the left's use of the term has become.

"even though the two leading Asian/American organizations favored the UTX program"

Yeah, the march through the institutions. They didn't particularly care what their members thought about it.
 

Brett is blind, raged by people of color, especially African-Americans. Maybe in Brett's view there is no White race. But that wasn't the view of the KKK and those former Democrats who converted via Nixon's Southern Strategy to the Republican Party, mostly from the former slave states, constituting a significant portion of the GOP's current base. Are Filipinos white, or is that merely a nationality? The history of Mexico before various European conquests was similar to that of that of Native Americans, with race mixings with conquerers and African slaves. Many Asian Americans do quite well in higher education in America. But not all Asians are the same. Perhaps Brett has data indicating that Filipino Americans do as well as other Asians; if they do, that would be despite the treatment of Filipinos by Americans after expanding the empire to that part of the Pacific.

The polling that gives Trump the lead breaks down to less educated whites. Is Trump color blind? The Blacks love him, the Muslims love him, the Mexicans love him, etc, etc, just ask him. (Does Brett get that kind of love, too?)

It's obvious Brett has had advantages, up to now, as a white, despite the ignorance he displays on so many matters. The government can't be color blind because the people who make up government are not color blind. Jim Crow did not stop with Brown v. Bd. of Educ. Obviously Jim Crow was not color blind. Brett merely pretends to be color blind. His whole life has been hatred of the "Other." Brett fears the level playing field, like a typical Trump supporter.

I wonder if Brett tells his young mixed race son about the ill treatment of Filipinos in the Islands and here by America.
 

This comment has been removed by the author.
 

First, one of my points is that, "nothing they're saying has anything to do with race" is wrong. As noted: "And, in effect, once you target someone Mexican or Muslim, racism is furthered, given who tends to be the target of such actions."

Brett skips over this and focuses on my statement on how "racism" is broadly understood by societal and historical practice. His citation of the use of "it's" as a possessive -- an example of typo confusion not based on actual core recognized meaning -- is not very serious.

Merriam-Webster, e.g., defines "race" to include "a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics." Or, "a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock." The "stock" here repeatedly understood to be ethnicity, religious and other origin. I realize it might be "pointless" since Brett might not really listening, but just to toss it out there.

Dictionaries reflect common usage, so when Democrats and non-Democrats use the term "racist" here, it does seem to have a "point," putting aside that even a more limited understanding of the word would have application here.
 

To be fair to Prof. Levinson, his remarks is not based on Trump being a "racist" but more on him being a fascist.

I get accused of being a racist for insisting that the government should not discriminate on the basis of race. That's how crazy the left's use of the term has become.

No, I gather you get called a "racist" not merely for a position on affirmative action (supported not just by "the left") but for your general views as a whole. Wrong or right such critics might be, but just to be clear.
 

Sandy:

I am hardly a Trump fan, but he is in no way, shape or form a fascist. Trump is a wealthy man playing politician who delights in saying things the Democrat media finds outrageous, but pluralities to majorities of the American people support. These controversies dominate the news cycle and suck the political air out of the room for his GOP competitors

The Democrat media has caught on to Trump's game and is attempting to use him against the GOP in general. The Democrat counter-game is to invent some radical policy and ask Trump if he supports or opposes it. If Trump hedges and does not categorically reject the policy, the Democrats with bylines will misleadingly claim that Trump supports the policy and falsely imply that it was his policy all along. Then Democrats in and out of the media (joined now by yourself) try to pick fights between GOP candidates and Trump by arguing that they support the radical policy unless they reject Trump..

The Democrat media suggestion that Muslims be forced to register in a database is a perfect example of this loathsome strategy. Trump never suggested any such policy.

What Trump did suggest was a temporary moratorium on allowing Muslims to enter the United States until the government can effectively vet migrants for jihadis. As I suspected, after all the establishment attacks, a plurality of all voters and a super majority of GOP voters support Trump's proposition.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 66% of Likely Republican Voters favor a temporary ban on all Muslims entering the United States until the federal government improves its ability to screen out potential terrorists from coming here. Just 24% oppose the plan, with 10% undecided.

Among all voters, 46% favor a temporary ban on Muslims entering the United States, while 40% are opposed. Fourteen percent (14%) are undecided.


http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/december_2015/voters_like_trump_s_proposed_muslim_ban

If you Democrats are not careful, your political gotchya game is going to get this fool elected.
 

If you Democrats are not careful, your political gotchya game is going to get this fool elected.
# posted by Blogger Bart DePalma : 11:48 AM


These poll numbers are GREAT news for John McCain!!!
 

Donald Trump is a wannabe war criminal. He favors waterboarding, an infamous war crime of torture, violation of the CAT, violation of human rights law (under the U.N. Charter, the ICCPR, and the American Declaration of the Rights and Duties of Man as supplemented by the O.A.S. Charter), and crime against humanity at least if torture is part of his program involving systematic and/or widespread torture. Twenty-nine U.S. cases recognized that waterboarding and related inducement of suffocation by water is torture, as did seven U.S. Dep’t of State Human Rights Country Reports and three Human Rights Courts in Europe and the Americas. He favors killing members of the family of terrorists, an infamous war crime of collective punishment, reprisal, and murder as well as a violation of human rights law and a crime against humanity at least if murders are part of his program involving systematic and/or widespread killings. He favors detention of refugees in concentration camps on the basis of their religious preferences, an infamous form of arbitrary detention not authorized by the laws of war and a war crime in a theatre of war in time of war and an infamous violation of human rights law regarding personal security and liberty as well as freedom from impermissible forms of discrimination. He favors exclusion of all Muslims from the United States, an infamous violation of human rights law and a form of persecution on the basis of religion that is a crime against humanity at least if persecution of religious grounds is part of his program involving systematic and/or widespread persecution. He might favor carpet bombing, like another wannabe war criminal.
 

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You’re alone in a zombie infested desert. Your only means of defense is your truck. Kill zombies to earn money, and then use the money to buy upgrades for your truck to help you to go through all the obstacles and defend yourself. Earn bonus cash by coming up with creative and impressive ways to kill the zombies, as well as breaking down other obstacles and barriers in your path.
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The war between humans, orcs and elves continues earn to die free hot. Lead your race through a series of epic battles, using your crossbow to fend off foes and sending out units to destroy castleshappy wheels . Researching and upgrading wisely will be crucial to your success! There are 5 ages total and each one will bring you new units to train to fight in the war for you cause. earn to die hotWhatever you do, don’t neglect your home base because you cannot repair it and once it is destroyed, you lose! Age of War is the first game of the series and really sets the tone for the Age of War games . Also try out the Age of Defense series as it is pretty similar.
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You’re alone in a zombie infested desert. Your only means of defense is your truck. Kill zombies to earn money, and then use the money to buy upgrades for your truck to help you to go through all the obstacles and defend yourself. Earn bonus cash by coming up with creative and impressive ways to kill the zombies, as well as breaking down other obstacles and barriers in your path.
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The war between humans, orcs and elves continues. Lead your race through a series of epic battles, using your crossbow to fend off foes and sending out units to destroy castles. Researching and upgrading wisely will be crucial to your success! There are 5 ages total and each one will bring you new units to train to fight in the war for you cause.
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