Balkinization: The only relevant question at the next debate

Comments:

That's the only relevant question at the Republican debate, in about the same way as "Are you willing to vote and campaign for either a known criminal or an unrepentant communist" is the only relevant question at the next Democratic debate. A good question, and certainly on point, but not one that you'd actually expect to be asked.

Or to put it another way, Democrats don't get to chose the only relevant question at Republican debates, any more than Republicans get to chose the only relevant question at Democratic debates.

Oh, and did you even read your link? You said Trump wants a database of "Muslims in the US", and to prove it linked to a post whose headline was, "Donald Trump says he ‘absolutely’ wants a database of Syrian refugees"

Now, granted most of the Syrian refugees are Muslims, in fact, Christians, the victims of an ongoing genocide in Syria, are under-represented among them. (Jews are entirely absent, but that's because Syria finished genociding them.) But a database of Syrian refuges is still not the same as a database of Muslims in the US.

And I expect you damned well know it.

All you're demonstrating here is that Trumps opponents have a fascist's contempt for the facts. When you have to tell lies about somebody to attack them, that suggests you don't have any good basis for attacking them.

# posted by

Brett : 5:58 AM

Brett is right. Republicans should be free to nominate the most racist piece of crap that they can find. In fact, I encourage them to do so.

# posted by

Anonymous : 9:26 AM

In point of fact, Republicans are categorically incapable of nominating somebody who Democrats won't claim is a racist. Short of running a fusion ticket with the Democratic party, that Democrats will declare the Republican candidate a racist is inevitable.

To Democrats, racism isn't about race. (Islam is a religion, not a race.) It's about disagreeing with them.

# posted by

Brett : 10:12 AM

To Democrats, racism isn't about race. (Islam is a religion, not a race.) It's about disagreeing with them.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 10:12 AM

What Democrats believe isn't really for you to decide.

# posted by

Anonymous : 10:26 AM

That's quite true, BartBuster. It's also true that Democrats don't get to define "racism" to be anything they don't like. Or rather, you can, (And do!) but nobody is under any obligation to accept the new definition.

You call everybody you don't like a "racist", you should hardly be shocked that people stop caring who you think is a racist.

# posted by

Brett : 10:38 AM

You call everybody you don't like a "racist", you should hardly be shocked that people stop caring who you think is a racist.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 10:38 AM

And I would definitely encourage you to continue not to care. Go ahead and nominate the most anti brown skinned refugee non racist that you can find. Just don't be shocked when everyone else thinks that you're a bunch of racists.

# posted by

Anonymous : 10:46 AM

With respect to Hamilton's "principled" actions, perhaps the other Republican presidential candidates are aware of Burr's eventual "revenge." With such a large number of candidates, not unlike coalitions in foreign policy, no one is prepared to act on such principle without assurances that the others are by his/her side. While many of these candidates agree with respect to Trump, each candidate's second agenda is his/her own candidacy, so they await some other hero..

Personally, I don't think Trump would go the third party route, at least with his own money. The bigger threat to the GOP would be diminished voter turnout in the general election by disgruntled Trump supporters.

# posted by

Shag from Brookline : 2:36 PM

Trump is not being labeled a racist in the "anything they [Democrats] don't like" sense of the word here, particularly to the degree that various Republicans are so labeling him. He is thought -- ymmv -- to have crossed a certain line here objectively speaking. BB's suggestion is cynically appealing but in practice is far from without problems. When, e.g., people are beaten up by those encouraged by Trump's rhetoric, I worry about such a thing.

# posted by

Joe : 2:40 PM

BB's suggestion is cynically appealing but in practice is far from without problems. When, e.g., people are beaten up by those encouraged by Trump's rhetoric, I worry about such a thing.
# posted by Blogger Joe : 2:40 PM

I'm not suggesting that people should just sit back and let racists walk all over them. But trying to convince people that what they're doing is racist and they should not do it appears to be utterly pointless. They either don't agree that it's racist, and can't be convinced otherwise, or they don't care. At least if they're openly racist it's difficult for most people to pretend otherwise.

# posted by

Anonymous : 3:00 PM

When Cheney starts saying you crossed a line, I think you have reached a new low/high (however you look at it). In that sense, they do care, and some minimum standards might be advanced. The alternatives (the "Trump" or "Carson" vote will go to Cruz ... who is horrible in various ways) leave a lot to be desired, obviously. But, there is bad and there is BAD, and Trump is the latter (or BAD with a somewhat bigger font).

People do at times hope for the worse candidate to be the nominee and this can be a productive thing on a cynical level. At times, one party eggs on or in other ways advances that nominee. But, Trump is a certain level of dangerous here, not like "I'm not a witch" or "real rape" type candidates of recent past. This is why certain serious people, like people out of the Obama White House, are upping the ant-Trump talk.

# posted by

Joe : 3:14 PM

Rachel Maddow suggests Trump is being self-destructive.

I can believe that he deep down knows he doesn't have the votes to win the nomination (but very well can split the vote in a way making him a kingmaker of sorts) & doesn't want to start losing primaries by big margins or something (as he might in various states). Running for President is also hard, and it surprises me a bit he is still around. So, he might be looking for an excuse to get out, blame the party for "pushing him" or "not treating him fairly" etc.

Who knows. I also guess a third party race is not likely. But, it would be dangerous. The Republicans will likely need to win a few close states and as we saw in 2000, even a tiny sliver can matter there.

# posted by

Joe : 3:19 PM

I think the only reason people like Cheney are speaking out now is because Trump is saying the things out loud that the GOP establishment would really prefer to be implied with a wink. Trump isn't all that different from the rest of the GOP candidates. Trump is just more outspoken. He's telling the GOP base what it wants to hear. I think it's great for every American to see what the GOP base really wants to hear.

# posted by

Anonymous : 3:22 PM

Blogger Joe said...
Rachel Maddow suggests Trump is being self-destructive.

He's failing at it. Every time he start saying racist bigoted crap his poll numbers go up.

# posted by

Anonymous : 3:24 PM

"But trying to convince people that what they're doing is racist and they should not do it appears to be utterly pointless."

It's especially pointless when nothing they're saying has anything to do with race.

"Mexican" is a nationality. "Muslim" is a religion/ideology. You could argue that Trump is bigoted on either score, and it still wouldn't make him a "racist". Maybe you should find a few new epithets, instead of using the same one for everything?

"I think the only reason people like Cheney are speaking out now is because Trump is saying the things out loud that the GOP establishment would really prefer to be implied with a wink."

Close. He's saying things that the party establishment would rather not be a topic of discussion on ANY level, because they'd prefer to screw their base over on immigration, know the base doesn't like it, and so don't want the topic to be talked about at all.

But, close.

# posted by

Brett : 3:43 PM

Close. He's saying things that the party establishment would rather not be a topic of discussion on ANY level, because they'd prefer to screw their base over on immigration, know the base doesn't like it, and so don't want the topic to be talked about at all.

But, close.
# posted by Blogger Brett : 3:43 PM

Does the KKK have a candidate that you could vote for?

# posted by

Anonymous : 4:02 PM

Because I'm almost certain that your views on immigration match up with the KKK's views on immigration like 2 peas in a pod.

# posted by

Anonymous : 4:07 PM

Obviously, I'm talking about the Christian wing of the KKK, and not the racist wing.

# posted by

Anonymous : 4:13 PM

;)

# posted by

Anonymous : 4:14 PM

Of course Brett is conscious of race when it comes to his Asian/American (Filipino) son. Go back to the thread on the Fisher case of a couple of years ago where he expressed concerns that UTX program was discriminatory of Asian/Americans (even though the two leading Asian/American organizations favored the UTX program. Brett is not colorblind.

# posted by

Shag from Brookline : 4:43 PM

Brett is particular on the use of "race" though if people called Trump a bigot, a fair bet the argument would be Democrats use that term loosely. Glasshouses/stones on tired usage.

The term "race" has traditionally been used broadly to include Mexicans. And, in effect, once you target someone Mexican or Muslim, racism is furthered, given who tends to be the target of such actions.

Cheney et. al. has certain basic standards about things (his national security extremism doesn't change this) though Trump's rhetoric being politically dangerous to the party's long term interests factors in too. Pragmatical concerns is one check on our abuses.

# posted by

Joe : 5:44 PM

"The term "race" has traditionally been used broadly to include Mexicans."

And "it's" has traditionally been used as a possessive. Your point?

The point here, Shag, is that I do, as a matter of fact, want the government to be utterly color blind. I get accused of being a racist for insisting that the government should not discriminate on the basis of race. That's how crazy the left's use of the term has become.

"even though the two leading Asian/American organizations favored the UTX program"

Yeah, the march through the institutions. They didn't particularly care what their members thought about it.

# posted by

Brett : 7:39 PM

Brett is blind, raged by people of color, especially African-Americans. Maybe in Brett's view there is no White race. But that wasn't the view of the KKK and those former Democrats who converted via Nixon's Southern Strategy to the Republican Party, mostly from the former slave states, constituting a significant portion of the GOP's current base. Are Filipinos white, or is that merely a nationality? The history of Mexico before various European conquests was similar to that of that of Native Americans, with race mixings with conquerers and African slaves. Many Asian Americans do quite well in higher education in America. But not all Asians are the same. Perhaps Brett has data indicating that Filipino Americans do as well as other Asians; if they do, that would be despite the treatment of Filipinos by Americans after expanding the empire to that part of the Pacific.

The polling that gives Trump the lead breaks down to less educated whites. Is Trump color blind? The Blacks love him, the Muslims love him, the Mexicans love him, etc, etc, just ask him. (Does Brett get that kind of love, too?)

It's obvious Brett has had advantages, up to now, as a white, despite the ignorance he displays on so many matters. The government can't be color blind because the people who make up government are not color blind. Jim Crow did not stop with Brown v. Bd. of Educ. Obviously Jim Crow was not color blind. Brett merely pretends to be color blind. His whole life has been hatred of the "Other." Brett fears the level playing field, like a typical Trump supporter.

I wonder if Brett tells his young mixed race son about the ill treatment of Filipinos in the Islands and here by America.

# posted by

Shag from Brookline : 8:54 PM

This comment has been removed by the author.

# posted by

Joe : 9:37 PM

First, one of my points is that, "nothing they're saying has anything to do with race" is wrong. As noted: "And, in effect, once you target someone Mexican or Muslim, racism is furthered, given who tends to be the target of such actions."

Brett skips over this and focuses on my statement on how "racism" is broadly understood by societal and historical practice. His citation of the use of "it's" as a possessive -- an example of typo confusion not based on actual core recognized meaning -- is not very serious.

Merriam-Webster, e.g., defines "race" to include "a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics." Or, "a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock." The "stock" here repeatedly understood to be ethnicity, religious and other origin. I realize it might be "pointless" since Brett might not really listening, but just to toss it out there.

Dictionaries reflect common usage, so when Democrats and non-Democrats use the term "racist" here, it does seem to have a "point," putting aside that even a more limited understanding of the word would have application here.

# posted by

Joe : 9:41 PM

To be fair to Prof. Levinson, his remarks is not based on Trump being a "racist" but more on him being a fascist.

I get accused of being a racist for insisting that the government should not discriminate on the basis of race. That's how crazy the left's use of the term has become.

No, I gather you get called a "racist" not merely for a position on affirmative action (supported not just by "the left") but for your general views as a whole. Wrong or right such critics might be, but just to be clear.

# posted by

Joe : 10:01 PM

Sandy:

I am hardly a Trump fan, but he is in no way, shape or form a fascist. Trump is a wealthy man playing politician who delights in saying things the Democrat media finds outrageous, but pluralities to majorities of the American people support. These controversies dominate the news cycle and suck the political air out of the room for his GOP competitors

The Democrat media has caught on to Trump's game and is attempting to use him against the GOP in general. The Democrat counter-game is to invent some radical policy and ask Trump if he supports or opposes it. If Trump hedges and does not categorically reject the policy, the Democrats with bylines will misleadingly claim that Trump supports the policy and falsely imply that it was his policy all along. Then Democrats in and out of the media (joined now by yourself) try to pick fights between GOP candidates and Trump by arguing that they support the radical policy unless they reject Trump..

The Democrat media suggestion that Muslims be forced to register in a database is a perfect example of this loathsome strategy. Trump never suggested any such policy.

What Trump did suggest was a temporary moratorium on allowing Muslims to enter the United States until the government can effectively vet migrants for jihadis. As I suspected, after all the establishment attacks, a plurality of all voters and a super majority of GOP voters support Trump's proposition.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 66% of Likely Republican Voters favor a temporary ban on all Muslims entering the United States until the federal government improves its ability to screen out potential terrorists from coming here. Just 24% oppose the plan, with 10% undecided.

Among all voters, 46% favor a temporary ban on Muslims entering the United States, while 40% are opposed. Fourteen percent (14%) are undecided.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/immigration/december_2015/voters_like_trump_s_proposed_muslim_ban

If you Democrats are not careful, your political gotchya game is going to get this fool elected.

# posted by

Bart DePalma : 11:48 AM

If you Democrats are not careful, your political gotchya game is going to get this fool elected.
# posted by Blogger Bart DePalma : 11:48 AM

These poll numbers are GREAT news for John McCain!!!

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