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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts How "The Million Dollar Law Degree" Study Systematically Overstates Value: Three Choices that Skewed the Results
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Tuesday, July 23, 2013
How "The Million Dollar Law Degree" Study Systematically Overstates Value: Three Choices that Skewed the Results
Brian Tamanaha
Michael Simkovic and Frank McIntyre (S&M) have created a sensation with the release of their new study purporting to show that a law degree has a value of $1,000,000. Legal educators cheered and skeptics jeered.
Comments:
Brian, keep up the good work. As I have been reading S&M and your responses, the phrase "Follow the money" comes to mind. There is quite a bit of money at stake, not just of potential JD students. There is of course the public interest in the delivery of competent legal services for all in need thereof, not just those served by "Big Law." Noam Scheiber's The New Republic article "The Last Days of Big Law" does not address the impact on "Little Law" with respect to the the discussion on JDs. Many rely upon and need "Little Law." So the economic issues addressed by you and S&M are of vital public interest. The issue of income inequality is also involved, heavily.
By the way, some may object to your reference to "S&M" for obvious reasons but this should not detract from the substance of your critique. (In several places reference is made to "S&B" which you might wish to correct.)
This debate reminds me of stock analysts trying to make the bull and bear case for something like Apple. It's partly empirical, but it's also party psychological.
Two additional things I noticed from the powerpoint I wonder if you could comment on.
1) The top line lifetime premium seems to include additional earnings from additional hours worked (seemingly around 8500 hours over a career). 2) The analysis seems to be only made from the perspective of a student going to law school at 22 right out of college. Given that an older student bears the same or higher costs (including opportunity costs) but have fewer years to earn any premium, the total premium would be lower.
Substitute, in Gerard's comment, law schools for Apple, and then ask if the analysts, both bulls and bears, may have vested interests in their analyses. (Some interests may be more vested than others.) Are the law school students (the investors of time and money) being impressed by the empirical or the psychological part?
ABA rules prohibit law students from working the first year of law school. AND "The Million Dollar Law Degree" ignores the opportunity cost, those same more capable students who chose to attend law school, could have pursued a post-graduate degree in a different field rather than stopping with a bachelors. Further eroding the validity of their study.
I take it they don't compare to ROI on other ways to invest three years and a hundred thousand or two.
Brian,
I appreciate your analysis and look forward to your future posts, but I think your first argument about time frame is unpersuasive. As you acknowledge, SIPPs was redesigned in 1996. Aggregating data pre- and post-1996 would have made any discerned earnings premium far less reliable. More importantly, I think you make far too much of the exclusion of the period from 1992-1995. Entry-level employment was similar to 1995-98 (as indicated by table 2 on page 9). But this does not necessarily mean that the earnings premium was the same or lower. One cannot form conclusions about all JD holders based solely on entry-level employment numbers. As S&M's data suggests, the earnings premium tends to be larger during recessions and their immediate aftermath and the U.S. economy only began an economic recovery in late 1992. Lastly, even if you are right about the earnings premium from 1992-1995, what about 1987-91 when the legal economy appeared to be quite strong (as illustrated by the same chart referenced above)? Your suggestion to look at a twenty year period excludes this time frame even though it might offset the diminution in the earnings premium that would allegedly occur if S&M considered 1992-95.
I'm glad the SM article is getting careful comment, but the 1992 vs. 1996 criticism isn't a big criticism. A study always has to choose a sample period. Choosing just the most recent years isn't always the best idea, nor is choosing the longest span of years. What is needed is a representative span of years. Thus, the famous economics Harberger Triangle paper of 1954 used 1928 data, not more recent data, because it wanted to look at a normal year in the economy, and 1929-1953 was full of depressions, wars, a post-war boom, and price controls.
Thus, you can't say, "If we pick years X, we get different results."If you can pick your own span of years, that's not surprising. You have to argue that their years are less representative than your years. For a very simple example of my trying to deal fairly with this, see the memo on longterm stock market returns I wrote for a school board I'm on that is wondering how to invest its capital funds: http://rasmusen.dreamhosters.com/b/stock-market-returns-and-risk-returns-from-various-years-until-2013/
Thanks, Shag. I fixed the mistakes. I put the post up late last night.
Gerard is right of course that we are seeing things through very different lenses, but still there are bottom line questions about risk that can be answered. Milan and Eric, I agree with both of you. Of course you must start somewhere and wherever you start will affect the results. The issue is whether the numbers they provide us are a reliable guide to prospective students thinking about law school today. I say no. I was trying to make two basic points: 1) This 16 years is not a representative slice because it measures the full effect of the boom years in big law, while only partially measuring the results of the down years that surrounded these years. It doesn't really matter why they could not measure the full effect--what matters is only that the numbers they report are higher then they would be if the full effect of these bad years were captured. Hence the real earnings picture was not as high as what they reported. At the very least they should have made a convincing argument that this 16 slice is representative before calling it "historical norms," but they did not address this issue at all. I don't believe a plausible case for this can be made in such a short span of time because you need to see a number of cycles before you can establish what "representative" is. Indeed, I believe (implicit in Eric's comments) that we can only determine this with hindsight. 16 years might be enough, if one looked at a hundred years to pick out 16 years that seem representative one what occurred over those hundred. 2) I'm highly skeptical that the very notion of "historic norm"--as a reliable indication of what people who enter law school today are likely to obtain as lifetime earnings--has any application at a dynamic time of change in the legal market like the present. Their study reflects earnings during the best years of big law in the past generation (without the full effect of the down years), which report after report tells us will not coming back. Read today's New Republic article, "The Last Days of Big Law." Historic norms, assuming they are reliably established, might have some value if a long term stable period lies ahead that looks like the period the norms were derived from. But they are useless at a time of transition simply because they reflect the past, not the future. The future of the legal market is fuzzy, but there is general agreement that it is not likely to look like the past. That's the fundamental problem with their claim about the value of their study.
Brian,I have been one of your supporters.
However, your points here are wrongs. I read carefully the slides published by Simkovic and your claim about the 10% premium doesn't hold. The authors have studied 3 groups: JDs (a), bachelor degree holders who look like JDs based on different variables (b), and the broader bachelor degree holder population (c). The authors have compared group (a) to group (b) in estimating the premium. You are saying that they have compared (a) to (c). So your conclusions are pointless, because that's not what the study did. Also I think that your choice of referring to the authors as "S&M" sounds offensive and it will ultimately reflect poorly on you. I understand that your points about the problem with law school are touching the heart of many students who are having a rough time. However it's important that you don't mislead people on this important issue.
Thanks for your comments, Carlos. You are right that they discussed two different bachelor's groups, but I believe their NELS ability premium compared the same backgrounds.
As for S&M, I honestly did not think about it. Perhaps I should have. But it seems to me that no serious person reading this would think anything but their names. Spelling it out would have been tedious. M&S feels forced to me because S&M is the order of their names on the article--and it is standard to follow this order.
Brian, thanks for your analysis. I add one personal factor. Mr. Pasquale doesn't allow comments on his posts. That doesn't give me confidence that he's willing to face criticism.
Eric Rasumusen: "Thus, the famous economics Harberger Triangle paper of 1954 used 1928 data, not more recent data, because it wanted to look at a normal year in the economy, and 1929-1953 was full of depressions, wars, a post-war boom, and price controls. "
Two things - first, the period of 1992 would still be 'normal'; there wasn't an excuse to exclude it. Second, Brian's point is that this analysis has some major sensitivity issues. Given that the question is whether or not to invest several years of one's life and $100K-$250K, the risk is severe. As has been pointed out, we're seeing four years now of cohorts where 40% have seen their careers stunted right at the start; IIRC, it's a pretty solid conclusion of labor economics that these effects are permanent.
Many of Frank's posts at this Blog are cross-posted at Concurring Opinions where comments can be made to Frank's posts. But not all of Frank's posts at this Blog are so cross-posted. So perhaps it is convenient for Frank not to cross-post to avoid comments here to his critiques of Brian's posts. Frank's posts are available to the internet public. Perhaps for consistency Frank should - if he is permitted - provide for comments here at this Blog when he does not cross-post. The suggestion of E-mail fails to address this inconsistency. It might be more consistent - and fair - if Frank consistently did nor permit comments at this Blog and at Concurring Opinions.
Small typo in the sentence reading: Rather than conduct an open-minded inquiry into the economic value of a law degree, it appears that S&B were hell bent on proving that a law degree pays off handsomely for nearly all law grads.
I think you mean S&M
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Books by Balkinization Bloggers Linda C. McClain and Aziza Ahmed, The Routledge Companion to Gender and COVID-19 (Routledge, 2024) David Pozen, The Constitution of the War on Drugs (Oxford University Press, 2024) Jack M. Balkin, Memory and Authority: The Uses of History in Constitutional Interpretation (Yale University Press, 2024) Mark A. Graber, Punish Treason, Reward Loyalty: The Forgotten Goals of Constitutional Reform after the Civil War (University of Kansas Press, 2023) Jack M. Balkin, What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Most Controversial Decision - Revised Edition (NYU Press, 2023) Andrew Koppelman, Burning Down the House: How Libertarian Philosophy Was Corrupted by Delusion and Greed (St. Martin’s Press, 2022) Gerard N. Magliocca, Washington's Heir: The Life of Justice Bushrod Washington (Oxford University Press, 2022) Joseph Fishkin and William E. Forbath, The Anti-Oligarchy Constitution: Reconstructing the Economic Foundations of American Democracy (Harvard University Press, 2022) Mark Tushnet and Bojan Bugaric, Power to the People: Constitutionalism in the Age of Populism (Oxford University Press 2021). Mark Philip Bradley and Mary L. Dudziak, eds., Making the Forever War: Marilyn B. Young on the Culture and Politics of American Militarism Culture and Politics in the Cold War and Beyond (University of Massachusetts Press, 2021). Jack M. Balkin, What Obergefell v. Hodges Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Same-Sex Marriage Decision (Yale University Press, 2020) Frank Pasquale, New Laws of Robotics: Defending Human Expertise in the Age of AI (Belknap Press, 2020) Jack M. Balkin, The Cycles of Constitutional Time (Oxford University Press, 2020) Mark Tushnet, Taking Back the Constitution: Activist Judges and the Next Age of American Law (Yale University Press 2020). Andrew Koppelman, Gay Rights vs. Religious Liberty?: The Unnecessary Conflict (Oxford University Press, 2020) Ezekiel J Emanuel and Abbe R. Gluck, The Trillion Dollar Revolution: How the Affordable Care Act Transformed Politics, Law, and Health Care in America (PublicAffairs, 2020) Linda C. McClain, Who's the Bigot?: Learning from Conflicts over Marriage and Civil Rights Law (Oxford University Press, 2020) Sanford Levinson and Jack M. Balkin, Democracy and Dysfunction (University of Chicago Press, 2019) Sanford Levinson, Written in Stone: Public Monuments in Changing Societies (Duke University Press 2018) Mark A. Graber, Sanford Levinson, and Mark Tushnet, eds., Constitutional Democracy in Crisis? (Oxford University Press 2018) Gerard Magliocca, The Heart of the Constitution: How the Bill of Rights became the Bill of Rights (Oxford University Press, 2018) Cynthia Levinson and Sanford Levinson, Fault Lines in the Constitution: The Framers, Their Fights, and the Flaws that Affect Us Today (Peachtree Publishers, 2017) Brian Z. Tamanaha, A Realistic Theory of Law (Cambridge University Press 2017) Sanford Levinson, Nullification and Secession in Modern Constitutional Thought (University Press of Kansas 2016) Sanford Levinson, An Argument Open to All: Reading The Federalist in the 21st Century (Yale University Press 2015) Stephen M. Griffin, Broken Trust: Dysfunctional Government and Constitutional Reform (University Press of Kansas, 2015) Frank Pasquale, The Black Box Society: The Secret Algorithms That Control Money and Information (Harvard University Press, 2015) Bruce Ackerman, We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution (Harvard University Press, 2014) Balkinization Symposium on We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution Joseph Fishkin, Bottlenecks: A New Theory of Equal Opportunity (Oxford University Press, 2014) Mark A. Graber, A New Introduction to American Constitutionalism (Oxford University Press, 2013) John Mikhail, Elements of Moral Cognition: Rawls' Linguistic Analogy and the Cognitive Science of Moral and Legal Judgment (Cambridge University Press, 2013) Gerard N. Magliocca, American Founding Son: John Bingham and the Invention of the Fourteenth Amendment (New York University Press, 2013) Stephen M. Griffin, Long Wars and the Constitution (Harvard University Press, 2013) Andrew Koppelman, The Tough Luck Constitution and the Assault on Health Care Reform (Oxford University Press, 2013) James E. Fleming and Linda C. McClain, Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues (Harvard University Press, 2013) Balkinization Symposium on Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues Andrew Koppelman, Defending American Religious Neutrality (Harvard University Press, 2013) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Failing Law Schools (University of Chicago Press, 2012) Sanford Levinson, Framed: America's 51 Constitutions and the Crisis of Governance (Oxford University Press, 2012) Linda C. McClain and Joanna L. Grossman, Gender Equality: Dimensions of Women's Equal Citizenship (Cambridge University Press, 2012) Mary Dudziak, War Time: An Idea, Its History, Its Consequences (Oxford University Press, 2012) Jack M. Balkin, Living Originalism (Harvard University Press, 2011) Jason Mazzone, Copyfraud and Other Abuses of Intellectual Property Law (Stanford University Press, 2011) Richard W. Garnett and Andrew Koppelman, First Amendment Stories, (Foundation Press 2011) Jack M. Balkin, Constitutional Redemption: Political Faith in an Unjust World (Harvard University Press, 2011) Gerard Magliocca, The Tragedy of William Jennings Bryan: Constitutional Law and the Politics of Backlash (Yale University Press, 2011) Bernard Harcourt, The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order (Harvard University Press, 2010) Bruce Ackerman, The Decline and Fall of the American Republic (Harvard University Press, 2010) Balkinization Symposium on The Decline and Fall of the American Republic Ian Ayres. Carrots and Sticks: Unlock the Power of Incentives to Get Things Done (Bantam Books, 2010) Mark Tushnet, Why the Constitution Matters (Yale University Press 2010) Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff: Lifecycle Investing: A New, Safe, and Audacious Way to Improve the Performance of Your Retirement Portfolio (Basic Books, 2010) Jack M. Balkin, The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life (2d Edition, Sybil Creek Press 2009) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Beyond the Formalist-Realist Divide: The Role of Politics in Judging (Princeton University Press 2009) Andrew Koppelman and Tobias Barrington Wolff, A Right to Discriminate?: How the Case of Boy Scouts of America v. James Dale Warped the Law of Free Association (Yale University Press 2009) Jack M. Balkin and Reva B. Siegel, The Constitution in 2020 (Oxford University Press 2009) Heather K. Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System Is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press 2009) Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008) David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007) Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007) Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007) Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006) Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006) Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006) Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006) Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006) Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005) Sanford Levinson, ed., Torture: A Collection (Oxford University Press 2004) Balkin.com homepage Bibliography Conlaw.net Cultural Software Writings Opeds The Information Society Project BrownvBoard.com Useful Links Syllabi and Exams |