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Tuesday, September 26, 2006
Hate to Rain on the Torture Parade . . .
Marty Lederman
The Wall Street Journal and National Review, among others, are downright giddy with delight at the prospect that, because of the new "compromise" legislation, the CIA will be able to resume its so-called "alternative" interrogation techniques. On this view, no longer need the Journal editors "fear" that techniques such as stress positions, sleep deprivation, and temperature extremes "are a thing of the past."
Comments:
I have a question here.
If treaties are domestic law too, isn't the House of Representatives irrelevant?
Professor Lederman:
The bill does not purport to supersede or override U.S. obligations under Common Article 3 -- everyone involved in the negotiations agrees on that much. It is irrelevant what a few members of Congress spin on the talking head shows for political CYA. By its own language, the compromise bill clearly states that it defines what acts constitute breaches of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. Given that the language details a list of exact definitions of prohibited conduct without any sort of catchall provision and expressly delegates to the President alone the power to add to this list of prohibited acts, basic statutory construction would find that Congress meant this list to be sum total of prohibited acts under Article 3. And CA3 does prohibit the techniques. CA3 uses completely subjective terms for which there are no objective definitions. Every single person here would have a different idea of what was and was not covered under the terms "torture" and "cruel treatment." Thus, you and everyone else are simply assuming that your own personal lists of prohibited acts are prohibited by CA3.
Bart writes: "By its own language, the compromise bill clearly states that it defines what acts constitute breaches of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions."
No, it simply doesn't. Indeed, the fact that more is left for presidential determination means that the statutory determinations are *not* the be-all and end-all of CA3 obligations. As the bill says, they are, at most, only Congress's view of the "grave" breaches. Bart also writes: "Every single person here would have a different idea of what was and was not covered under the terms 'torture' and 'cruel treatment.'" Perhaps. Perhaps there would be some ambiguity at the margins, as with any legal standard. But that's really neither here nor there for present purposes, because these are easy cases. Could anyone -- Bart included -- sincerely contend with a straight face that the states that signed Geneva would not have intended Cold Cell, Long-Time-Standing, waterboarding, stress positions, extended sleep deprivation and threats to family *not* to fall within the category of "cruel treatment"? To ask the question is to answer it. Indeed, the only really close question is whether and when those techniques go beyond "cruel treatment" to constitute "torture."
Professor Lederman:
Bart writes: "By its own language, the compromise bill clearly states that it defines what acts constitute breaches of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions." No, it simply doesn't. Indeed, the fact that more is left for presidential determination means that the statutory determinations are *not* the be-all and end-all of CA3 obligations. As the bill says, they are, at most, only Congress's view of the "grave" breaches. Congress' view in this matter is dispositive. Art. I, Sec. 8(11) of the Constitution expressly gives Congress the power to "make Rules concerning Captures." In Section 5 of the proposed legislation, Congress exerted this power over the Courts by removing jurisdiction over law suits asking the Courts to interpret the Geneva Conventions. Moreover, Section 6 is entitled "Implementation of Treaty Obligations." Section 6(a)(1) goes on to state that the acts enumerated under this legislation "constitute violations of common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibited by United States Law" Section 6(a)(2) needs to be quoted in its entirety as Congress' express preemption of all other interpretations of the Article 3 outside of this legislation: PROHIBITION ON GRAVE BREACHES.—The provisions of section 2441 of title 18, United States Code, as amended by this section, fully satisfy the obligation under Article 129 of the Third Geneva Convention for the United States to provide effective penal sanctions for grave breaches which are encompassed in common Article 3 in the context of an armed conflict not of an international character. No foreign or international source of law shall supply a basis for a rule of decision in the courts of the United States in interpreting the prohibitions enumerated in subsection (d) of such section 2441. The combination of these provisions demonstrate Congress' clear intent to preempt all other enforcement of the Geneva Conventions apart from that allowed in Section 6 of this legislation.
I have one question for Prof Lederman. I have yet to see him address it in any post of his and I would very much appreciate the answer if he has itme. It is not adifficult question
; What interrogation procedures are ok with you? All we see is you criticizingthe administration but you never offer an alternative set of tactics. Lets assume that KSM was ccaptured or lets say the US captures Zawahiri or some otheAQ big shot. How would YOU interrogate him? What tactics would be acceptable to you? Lay out how it would go. Let's say he syas, "I;m not telling you anything and I'm waiting for my lawyer". Is that the end of it? Should we just say ok. I have yet to see on eliberal explain how terrorists should be interrogated and how we should get information from them. How would you o it? What's acceptable to you? And if he says "I'm not telling you anything" after you've played by CA3 rules and Geneva rules, then what? Please, enough criticizing Bush. How would you go about it? i eagerly await your answer
Bart: Section 6 says nothing of the sort. You're reading from the old White House draft that has been off the table for a couple of weeks now.
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