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Balkinization
Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Original Public Meaning and "Contemporary Expected Application"
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Monday, July 23, 2007
Original Public Meaning and "Contemporary Expected Application"
JB
I had wanted to respond to Larry Solum's discussion of my most recent post on originalism.
Comments:
Thanks for the brief summary, Professor Balkin. I don't really disagree with the basic argument you put forth, but your implementation and examples seem to give greater weight to the cultural shift of meaning than I can readily infer from your premises.
You suggest looking to the original expected applications to inform upon the original meaning of the words, phrases, and broader text, but then what do we do with that original meaning? You seem to reinterpret it in your examples with a more contemporary sense of greater abstraction. Is your argument that "cruel" and "unusual" were originally meant to be entirely relative to the changing culture's definitions? More generally, are you broadly inserting cultural relativity into the principles you abstract from the text, or are you asserting that such cultural relativity is what was originally intended by the framers? In either case, given such relativity, at what point must the Constitution be revised versus culturally reinterpreted? At the very least it seems that you must conclude that despite having written the words, the framers didn't really understand the principles they were codifying, but that we do. Is this correct?
At the very least it seems that you must conclude that despite having written the words, the framers didn't really understand the principles they were codifying, but that we do. Is this correct?
-i think this is possible. the framers were not a monolithic group with a singular understanding of the constitution. while negotiating a text laying out a basic structure for the government and listing broad liberal principles agreeable to all in theory, the framers probably originally understood that the meaning as application of their words would be decided politically. some might even have contemplated that sometimes the application in their time might directly contradict what they saw to be the literal meaning of the words at that time. if that was their original understanding, it may not have been their understanding that only their generation would modify the practical content of the document's words. since future generations have more experience to look to as far as relation of the structures of government, doctrine and application and analysis of the broad liberties guaranteed by the constitution, later political decisions could be claimed to carry more weight.
J.B. Please define "relevant political community."
And explain how, in a democracy, any group or individual can be irrelevant?
the framers probably originally understood that the meaning as application of their words would be decided politically. some might even have contemplated that sometimes the application in their time might directly contradict what they saw to be the literal meaning of the words at that time.
This is clearly true in the most notable case, that of Madison. Here's his explanation of why he changed his position regarding the Bank: “It was in conformity with the view here taken of the respect due to deliberate and reiterated precedent, that the Bank of the United States, though on the original question held [by Madison] to be unconstitutional, received [Madison’s presidential] signature in the year 1817. The act originally establishing a bank had undergone ample discussions in its passage through the several branches of the government. It had been carried into execution through a period of twenty years, with annual legislative recognition ... and with the entire acquiescence of all the local authorities, as well as of the nation at large; to all of which may be added a decreasing prospect of any change in the public opinion adverse to the constitutionality of such an institution. A veto [by Madison], under these circumstances, [especially after having admitted both] the expediency and ... necessity of the measure, would have been a defiance of all the obligations derived from a course of precedents amounting to the requisite evidence of the national judgment and intentions.”
Thanks for your excellent comment, Alec.
I agree that the framers were not a monolithic group with a singular understanding, and that the discrepancies between their respective understandings would be reconciled in the political (meaning legislative?) process. I also agree that semantic outliers may at times find some applications contrary to their original understanding. Nevertheless, there is also a great deal of coherence to which we may look, and Prof. Balkin's examples did not appear to address such historic outliers of original meaning but instead cases where they would agree in their time and we would disagree in our time, with both judgements being purportedly based upon the same principles that they had codified, applied to the same event in the same context with the sole exception being cultural interpretation. Alec wrote: "if that was their original understanding, it may not have been their understanding that only their generation would modify the practical content of the document's words." That statement and your last paragraph seem very significant and I'd be interested to see Prof. Balkin affirm that since he does seem to imply it. I'm left questioning whether the framers's own reconciliation of the principles they codified gives license to future generations to reinterpret the text rather than change it. It seems to be an originalist argument for living constitutionalism. In that case, what is the role of the judiciary in this process of reinterpretation? At what point should the legislature revise the Constitution, given the validity of mere reinterpretation?
Thanks for the Madison example, Mark.
Is Madison arguing that the political process should operate through such cultural reinterpretation, or instead that he is morally justified in this particular case to corrupt the proper legislative process due to the need for expediency and the necessity of the measure, coupled with precedence and the national judgement and intentions? I see the greater debate as a question of process: Should the culture express itself implicitly through reinterpretation or explicitly through modification? How do we address cases which violate the process but also bear the colossal weight of a cultural shift? Moreover, how should we effectively measure such cultural shifts if mere reinterpretation is permitted?
Kevin,
by political I wasnt referring to the political branches exclusively. i was referring more to the social interactions that constitute public opinion and mores. i guess im not really sure what i was talking about, it was 5 am. something like madison's "national judgment and intentions" - thanks mark my opinion on the legitimacy of interpretation over revision concepts like "due process of law", "just compensation", "unreasonable search or seizure" invite interpretation and are tied to the expectations of people and the material capacity of government to provide process or to invade privacy. it seems unreasonable to limit the concept of unreasonable search to what the framers could have thought of at the time, unless we also limit policing capacity to what it was at the time of the founding. -You suggest looking to the original expected applications to inform upon the original meaning of the words, phrases, and broader text, but then what do we do with that original meaning? You seem to reinterpret it in your examples with a more contemporary sense of greater abstraction. concepts like establishment of religion and freedom of the speech and press are a little more concrete. the framers probably had specific ideas about what they meant in their context, but stated them broadly instead of specifically prohibiting the government contact that they could list. if the liberal ideals they meant to enshrine in the constitution have expanded (become more abstract) since the founding, could that have been their intent or just part of the nature of the concepts with which they were dealing.
Is Madison arguing that the political process should operate through such cultural reinterpretation, or instead that he is morally justified in this particular case to corrupt the proper legislative process due to the need for expediency and the necessity of the measure, coupled with precedence and the national judgement and intentions?
I see the greater debate as a question of process: Should the culture express itself implicitly through reinterpretation or explicitly through modification? It's impossible to answer your question with certainty, but I feel fairly confident that Madison (and Jefferson) would have expected the political process to resolve many issues. In addition to the Bank example, here's Madison's letter to Jefferson describing the options available to handle the problem of removing from office Presidential appointments: “[Two pending bills] gave birth to a very interesting constitutional question: by what authority removals from office were to be made. The Constitution being silent on the point, it was left to construction. Four opinions were advanced: 1. That no removal could be made but by way of impeachment. … 2. That it [was left to] the Legislature, to be disposed of as might be proper. … 3. That it was incident to the power of appointment, and therefore belonged to the President and Senate. … 4. That the Executive power being generally vested in the President, and the Executive function of removal not expressly taken away, it remained with the President. To this [i.e., to number 4] was objected [that the Senate participated in the appointment and therefore should in the removal], and the danger of creating too much weight in the Executive scale. After very long debates the 4th opinion prevailed, as most consonant to the text of the Constitution, to the policy of mixing the Legislative and Executive Departments as little as possible, and to the requisite responsibility and harmony in the Executive Department.” Note Madison's quick assumption that "The Constitution being silent on the point, it was left to construction." No amendment, no judicial decision (ultimately, of course, US v. Myers ruled on the issue). This doesn't prove that Madison had the same expectation for EVERY issue, particularly when an actual clause might be dispositive. But it, combined with his view on the Bank, suggests a firm commitment by him to the political process. In my own view, that commitment leads to an evolutionary process.
alec: concepts like establishment of religion and freedom of the speech and press are a little more concrete. the framers probably had specific ideas about what they meant in their context.
I would capitalize your name, but there's that small chance that you're doing a bell hooks thing and it would be disrespectful despite my intent. Hope the thought counts for somethin'. My expectation is that the framers ended up with a set of words they each could live (and let live) with while each hoping their private versions of the meanings of those words and the "logically required" applications thereof would eventually work out in their favor. That's certainly how similar group decisions work today, and I see nothing to indicate human nature was so very different then. What this practical reality means in the context of a) Professor Balkin's analyses, b) Justice Thomas's scandalous writings, c) the effective intersection, if any of a) and b), well, that part is beyond me. Peace.
Alec wrote: "it seems unreasonable to limit the concept of unreasonable search to what the framers could have thought of at the time, unless we also limit policing capacity to what it was at the time of the founding."
I agree: we must look to the intended principles and their conditionals and not just limit ourselves to historical applications. But Prof. Balkin notes that his examples actually contradict historical applications, leading me to suspect that he sees cultural relativity itself as an implicitly pervasive and intended conditional of principles in the text. Alec wrote: "if the liberal ideals they meant to enshrine in the constitution have expanded (become more abstract) since the founding, could that have been their intent or just part of the nature of the concepts with which they were dealing." Maybe that was their intent and I think it is helpful that Mark is addressing that possibility in more detail. I appreciate your argument, I'm just unclear whether Prof. Balkin is making that same argument and whether I understand him correctly.
Mark wrote: "It's impossible to answer your question with certainty, but I feel fairly confident that Madison (and Jefferson) would have expected the political process to resolve many issues."
I do not doubt that the political process is evolutionary and that they would have expected it to resolve many issues, what I am wondering is how that political process is supposed to operate in the context of re-interpretation. Or is it the case that whatever happens in the political process is the way it should operate? It seems relevant to your last example that the issue had no precedent or Constitutional guide upon which to rely, and that Madison looked to the legislature to fill in the gaps. I'm interested to learn of any other examples you are aware of, like the "Bank" (which may be exceptional), wherein the framers advocated reinterpretation in order to reverse precedence. Thanks.
It's always seemed to me that to maintain fidelity to the drafters of the provisions of the Constitution (or statutes, for that matter) we must treat the words and clauses as the intended consequences of the democratic process.
With that being said, the language must not be treated as an accident or as a mere shell to be fleshed out by a later generation. To do this will, though I expect some would disagree, invariably lead to judge-made law, for who is that mythical judge who has his finger so firmly on the pulse of society that he can act as their duly unelected representative? The provisions of the Constitution must be treated as a scream in the canyon, with reverberations throughout the ages that can be traced back to a single, broadly-defined source.
I do not doubt that the political process is evolutionary and that they would have expected it to resolve many issues, what I am wondering is how that political process is supposed to operate in the context of re-interpretation. Or is it the case that whatever happens in the political process is the way it should operate?
I'm not sure there's an easy answer to this; at least not one that's perfectly consistent. Jefferson, for example, originally expected that the judges would interpret and enforce the Constitutional limitations: “In the arguments in favor of a declaration of rights, you omit one which has great weight with me, the legal check which it puts into the hands of the judiciary. This is a body, which if rendered independent, and kept strictly to their own department merits great confidence for their learning and integrity.” Letter to Madison, March 15, 1789. Later, after Jefferson had become disgusted with the federalist judges, he began to reject the judiciary in favor of the elected branches. Madison, I think, was all along more reliant on the democratic process to decide Constitutional issues. Remember that the whole purpose of his grand theory in Federalist 10 was to create a "republican solution" to the problems of republican government. His solution was intended to prevent the enactment of laws unless they satisfied the "permanent and aggregate interests" of the nation. In that sense, Madison was, at least at the outset, intending to rely mostly on the democratic branches to decide the scope of their own power. In Federalist 44, his response to the potential for abuse of the necessary and proper clause was "If it be asked what is to be the consequence, in case the Congress shall misconstrue this part of the Constitution, and exercise powers not warranted by its true meaning, I answer, the same as if they should misconstrue or enlarge any other power vested in them; as if the general power had been reduced to particulars, and any one of these were to be violated; the same, in short, as if the State legislatures should violate the irrespective constitutional authorities. In the first instance, the success of the usurpation will depend on the executive and judiciary departments, which are to expound and give effect to the legislative acts; and in the last resort a remedy must be obtained from the people who can, by the election of more faithful representatives, annul the acts of the usurpers." Emphasis added. OTOH, Madison was not perfectly consistent on this point. In one sense, his Virginia Resolution, by claiming the right of states to "interpose", seems at least arguably inconsistent (though Madison could and did insist it was not). Later still, he complained to Spencer Roane (Sept. 2, 1819) that Marshall's opinion in McCulloch allowed a "latitude" of interpretation which created “a Legislative discretion … to which no practical limit can be assigned.” Ultimately, though, Madison was a very strong believer in the principal of majority rule. I believe, though I can't prove, that he would have accepted any long term practice which evidenced "the national judgment and intentions” (see the Bank quote above), provided that the practice didn't contradict the express language of the Constitution. There is one important caveat to this, though. Madison's whole theory of Federalist 10, and thus his acceptance of majority rule, depended on Congress being actually representative of the people as a whole. He vehemently protested the unrepresentative nature of the Senate. I'm sure that his willingness to accept legislation would have depended on some assurance that Congress actually reflected the majority will. This post is getting fairly long, but I should add that many of the federalists took the old British position that "liberty" was whatever the majority said it was. If they were consistent with that -- and I'm not sure they were after Jefferson's election -- then that achieves substantially the same result as Madison's view (at least in my interpretation). The key point for me is whether and how this reliance on majority rule intersects with the problem of majority tyranny. That's such a big issue that I'll leave it for now. I'm interested to learn of any other examples you are aware of, like the "Bank" (which may be exceptional), wherein the framers advocated reinterpretation in order to reverse precedence. The reaction of the first Republican Administration to the Sedition Act -- pardoning the victims, refunding their fines -- probably qualifies, though there's no convenient summation as there is for Madison and the Bank. The repeal of the expanded judiciary might also be seen as settling the interpretation of Art. III, Sec. 1. If I think of some other examples I'll post them later.
Kevin: Or is it the case that whatever happens in the political process is the way it should operate?
I know it's a rhetorical question, but it bears emphasizing that the clear answer to the question is a resounding "No!" The Constitution, at all times by all views, is intended to prevent and preclude tyranny. The problem remains that one man's tyranny is another's "necessary and proper", either for "security" or "the economy" or because the people affected are deemed outside the pale of those we deem worthy of protection from tyranny. The Constitution is supposed to help us be strong enough to resist external forces which would impose tyranny upon us, and to prevent us from acting tyrannically on ourselves and citizens. Some even think it should serve to prevent, say, the genocide of the Mohicans and unjust wars of aggression in service of war profiteers. But like the contemptible slavery "compromise" even where the political process deems certain acts to not be tyranny said political processes don't affect the reality of our acts. Once in a while reducing the discussion to such simple terms might be helpful in order to ground conversations pursuing refined nuance. That's the spirit in which this comment is offered.
I've worked in the constitutional law area nearly 20 years and have long since abandoned the academic literature for any purpose other than entertainment or a quick and dirty way into the cases. (The footnotes matter more than the text.) Although I agree with everything Prof. Balkin says, I think this post illustrates my frustration with the literature. I simply cannot understand why such stuff is the least bit controversial, though I know it is, and do not understand how someone can make a career (and win tenure) for saying such obvious stuff or, worse, opposing it.
cjcolucci: I simply cannot understand why such stuff is the least bit controversial...
Respectfully, as a student from a non-ABA school who nonetheless hopes to one day boast of 20 years similar experience, could it be simply that you advocate one side of the matter so well and so often that propositions over which reasonable folks can, in good faith, disagree have come to seem self-evident? If not, then may I ask you to narrow your statement to one particular point which you can't see as contentious so I can better understand your concern? I am not unsympathetic with what you've written. I tend to think it's a mistake to credit the writings of a Thomas or Scalia as bona fide offerings suitable to academic analysis. Despite their robes these men are advocates of a partisan political stance. But that's what academics do, they try to take things at face value and evaluate them for their possible merits, even after considering the source. Chiding a professor on those grounds seems a bit like chiding a counselor for unabashed advocacy (as opposed to chiding a judge for same.) Truly just trying to grasp your statement. Peace.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
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