Balkinization   |
Balkinization
Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Is the Second Amendment a Rule or a Principle?
|
Friday, July 04, 2008
Is the Second Amendment a Rule or a Principle?
JB
In my previous discussion of the Second Amendment I've assumed that the right to bear arms is a principle: that is, a norm that does not determine the scope of its extension and that can be balanced against other considerations, like public safety. It seems to me to be similar in this respect to the First Amendment's "freedom of speech," or the Fourth Amendment's "right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures."
Comments:
prof. balkin .. while i understand the scope of your discussion is concerned with the U. S. constitution .. i find it hard to accept the idea that the right of self-defense is somehow a 19th century idea ..
i also see two separate issues inherent .. the first being the individual right of any person to defend their person from assault .. and the second being the right .. or inclination of a specific society to collectively defend itself in order to maintain it's given form against an agressor .. [imminent domain?] while it may not be germane to your intent here.. imo .. individual self-defense is directly tied to the idea of self-preservation and is therefore as old as the human species ..[but not necessarily restricted only to humans] any animal .. human or otherwise would be expected to act in self-defense .. no ?? personally.. i've always interpreted the text of the 2nd to say literally that "the right to keep and bear arms individually shall not be infringed" was a direct recognition of the precondition stemming from the idea of the collective right of a society to defend and extend it's organizational structure from external or internal threat.. personally armed individuals can be assembled to form a collective defense of a society or organizational form .. looking at the normal organization of professional organized forces we see ..in modern armies .. when not in a combat zone .. weapons are kept in the arsenal .. or the arms locker .. or the armory .. and are not issued to the troops to carry about on a daily basis .. but are withdrawn or issued only upon the occurance of a need .. whether that need be for one of mobilization and employment of the armed force ..or for purposes of training or purposes of maintaining use-proficiency... for whatever reasons the weapons of those organizations whose only function is the profession-of-arms grant no license to walk about armed in the normal course of day to day activity when the force is not actively engaged .. only specific members [gate guards .. military police ..etc] walk about armed in the course of their normal duties .. aboard ships of all navies of the world .. individually borne weapons of any type are sequestered in locked and guarded compartments and are not issued generally except in extreme or dire and unusual circumstances... once again with the exceptions stated above.. so we are confronted with two separate systmes to consider .. one in which unarmed members of even a standing force of professionals are called to a central point of storage and issued their arms when it is considered individual possession of those arms are necessary for the immediate defense .. the second system is what ?? a loose collection of individuals which would only be called together .. or who would only organize into a collective force upon hearing of a threat.. or receiving an order to assemble ?? and the second force would bring their own private arms from their individual points of possession to the assemblage point .. ?? as a simple aside .. i can't imagine the logistics of trying to stock and supply all the various types of ammunition which would be required to make such a haphazard force effective unless some "form of regulation" was specified as to what type of weapon [arms] the individual-to-collective assemblage was required to own and possess when called .. i'm certain this is far afield of the point you had in mind .. but while considering the ideas surrounding normal organization-of-force i was struck by the differences between the ideal of the principle and how the prinicple has been accomodated between the two opposing sets of ideas .. i don't really have a point o make .. simply consider it fuel for the fire .. i find the radical differences between the two differing sets of armed individuals and the ways in which they "keep and bear arms" rather ironic .. self-defense notwithstanding ..
(An aside: One of the weakest features of Scalia's opinion is that it largely disregards the civic republican origins of the right and treats it as a modern liberal individualist right. This is another example of Scalia's anachronistic use of history.)
I agree. My take on the 2nd Amendment is that it can be viewed as a civic duty. This can be viewed through some practices at the time wherein the male citizenry was required to keep and maintain arms, and even bring them to church or when called to muster. I doubt that a radical individualistic approach is what the many of Founders where really after, since a Hobbesian suspicion of the mob does seem to permeate some of the Constitution. Of course, equal suspicion is directed at a strong Executive and centralized power in general. Power diffused through an armed citizenry WORKING TOGETHER(!!!!) under some direction to preserve their liberty seems to have been the desired result, as a standing army was an "engine of tyranny".
(An aside: One of the weakest features of Scalia's opinion is that it largely disregards the civic republican origins of the right and treats it as a modern liberal individualist right. This is another example of Scalia's anachronistic use of history.)
I agree. My take on the 2nd Amendment is that it can be viewed as a civic duty. This can be viewed through some practices at the time wherein the male citizenry was required to keep and maintain arms, and even bring them to church or when called to muster. I doubt that a radical individualistic approach is what the many of Founders where really after, since a Hobbesian suspicion of the mob does seem to permeate some of the Constitution. Of course, equal suspicion is directed at a strong Executive and centralized power in general. Power diffused through an armed citizenry WORKING TOGETHER(!!!!) under some direction to preserve their liberty seems to have been the desired result, as a standing army was an "engine of tyranny".
"but it is not at all clear that they were speaking about the third-- the common law right of self-defense."
friendly amendment: "it is not at all clear that all of them were speaking about the third--etc." or "it is not at all clear that they--as a group--were speaking about the third--etc." i believe the historical records clearly show that a few of them were, that a few of them definitely were not, and then it fails to show anything much about the majority.
"My take on the 2nd Amendment is that it can be viewed as a civic duty."
My view is that it is an individual right intended to safeguard the capacity of individuals to contribute to a civil duty the government might otherwise seek to make impossible. A well regulated militia might be necessary to the security of a free state, but what if the state doesn't want to be free? It might seek to make a well regulated militia impossible. The 2nd amendment bars efforts in that direction, by guaranteeing a right to be appropriately armed independent of formal militia membership.
i'd strike "appropriately" from that sentence brett .. it leaves an ambiguity some future lawyer would be hellbound to interpret into something we both know you didn't intend .. just say . "the right to be armed.. as an individual.. " .. oops .. now it could be said that you can't be armed in a group ..
darn .. this law stuff is h-a-r-d. :)
I've always seen a serious flaw in the argument that the Second Amendment guaranties an individual right to gun ownership for purposes of armed rebellion.
If the purpose is simple self-defense, that is straightforward enough. Self defense is clearly an individual right, and it logically follows that it is best secured by a right of individual gun ownership. (Although I believe it would be compatible with restrictions limiting gun ownership to the types of weapons suitable for self-defense and not carrying too great a risk of collateral damage). The right of self defense includes a right of self defense against police brutality, but that is merely a right of defense against criminal or rogue government agents, not a rebellion against the government. The right of revolution, OTOH, is a collective and not an individual right. I do not have the right to engage in armed rebellion whenever I personally see fit. That right belongs to the community as a whole. But individual gun ownership is not a good way to secure the collective right of revolution. A universal, organized militia (say, on the Israeli or Swiss model) is a far more effective instrument for ensuring that the army cannot be used to oppress the citizenry because the army is the citizenry. People who argue for unrestricted individual weapon ownership to safeguard the collective right of revolution seem to assume that the citizens will, by some miraculous power of telepathy, all agree on when the right of revolution vests, all remain peaceful until then, and all act in concert when the time comes. Much more likely the people will disagree when revolution is called for and end up with half the citizens shooting at the other half.
(An aside: One of the weakest features of Scalia's opinion is that it largely disregards the civic republican origins of the right and treats it as a modern liberal individualist right. This is another example of Scalia's anachronistic use of history.)
That's right. The key to understanding how this happened is that the advocates of the modern recognition of the right to bear arms tended to be western libertarian types who not only don't want their guns confiscated but don't like urban-style gun controls, such as waiting periods, registration, licensing, assault weapons bans, saturday night special bans, trigger lock requirements, tracing requirements, etc. So they utilized the historical evidence because they knew that would appeal to judicial conservatives, but the right they were arguing for was a very individualist conception of the right. In fact, however, the Second Amendment clearly permits lots of regulations of firearms ownership, so long as such regulations are connected to the organization, discipline, and training of the militia. Because the goal of the Second Amendment was not to enact the libertarian position on firearms ownership, but to ensure that the citizenry would be able to form an effective fighting force to secure the free state. The NRA and libertarians want half the right, because they are very distrustful of collectivizing security. But the Second Amendment clearly protects that right to keep and bear arms so that citizens are available to protect our freedom if they are needed to.
"In fact, however, the Second Amendment clearly permits lots of regulations of firearms ownership, so long as such regulations are connected to the organization, discipline, and training of the militia."
Post a Comment
I agree, but disarming people does not, and can not, contribute to the organization, discipline, and training of the militia. And classical gun control is all about disarming people. Now, you want to mandate that everyone has to put in x number of hours a month in marksmanship practice, and must own at least a specified arm and ammo for the same, you're on very firm grounds, 2nd amendment wise. But try to get the Brady center to sign on to THAT regulation of firearms...
|
Books by Balkinization Bloggers Linda C. McClain and Aziza Ahmed, The Routledge Companion to Gender and COVID-19 (Routledge, 2024) David Pozen, The Constitution of the War on Drugs (Oxford University Press, 2024) Jack M. Balkin, Memory and Authority: The Uses of History in Constitutional Interpretation (Yale University Press, 2024) Mark A. Graber, Punish Treason, Reward Loyalty: The Forgotten Goals of Constitutional Reform after the Civil War (University of Kansas Press, 2023) Jack M. Balkin, What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Most Controversial Decision - Revised Edition (NYU Press, 2023) Andrew Koppelman, Burning Down the House: How Libertarian Philosophy Was Corrupted by Delusion and Greed (St. Martin’s Press, 2022) Gerard N. Magliocca, Washington's Heir: The Life of Justice Bushrod Washington (Oxford University Press, 2022) Joseph Fishkin and William E. Forbath, The Anti-Oligarchy Constitution: Reconstructing the Economic Foundations of American Democracy (Harvard University Press, 2022) Mark Tushnet and Bojan Bugaric, Power to the People: Constitutionalism in the Age of Populism (Oxford University Press 2021). Mark Philip Bradley and Mary L. Dudziak, eds., Making the Forever War: Marilyn B. Young on the Culture and Politics of American Militarism Culture and Politics in the Cold War and Beyond (University of Massachusetts Press, 2021). Jack M. Balkin, What Obergefell v. Hodges Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Same-Sex Marriage Decision (Yale University Press, 2020) Frank Pasquale, New Laws of Robotics: Defending Human Expertise in the Age of AI (Belknap Press, 2020) Jack M. Balkin, The Cycles of Constitutional Time (Oxford University Press, 2020) Mark Tushnet, Taking Back the Constitution: Activist Judges and the Next Age of American Law (Yale University Press 2020). Andrew Koppelman, Gay Rights vs. Religious Liberty?: The Unnecessary Conflict (Oxford University Press, 2020) Ezekiel J Emanuel and Abbe R. Gluck, The Trillion Dollar Revolution: How the Affordable Care Act Transformed Politics, Law, and Health Care in America (PublicAffairs, 2020) Linda C. McClain, Who's the Bigot?: Learning from Conflicts over Marriage and Civil Rights Law (Oxford University Press, 2020) Sanford Levinson and Jack M. Balkin, Democracy and Dysfunction (University of Chicago Press, 2019) Sanford Levinson, Written in Stone: Public Monuments in Changing Societies (Duke University Press 2018) Mark A. Graber, Sanford Levinson, and Mark Tushnet, eds., Constitutional Democracy in Crisis? (Oxford University Press 2018) Gerard Magliocca, The Heart of the Constitution: How the Bill of Rights became the Bill of Rights (Oxford University Press, 2018) Cynthia Levinson and Sanford Levinson, Fault Lines in the Constitution: The Framers, Their Fights, and the Flaws that Affect Us Today (Peachtree Publishers, 2017) Brian Z. Tamanaha, A Realistic Theory of Law (Cambridge University Press 2017) Sanford Levinson, Nullification and Secession in Modern Constitutional Thought (University Press of Kansas 2016) Sanford Levinson, An Argument Open to All: Reading The Federalist in the 21st Century (Yale University Press 2015) Stephen M. Griffin, Broken Trust: Dysfunctional Government and Constitutional Reform (University Press of Kansas, 2015) Frank Pasquale, The Black Box Society: The Secret Algorithms That Control Money and Information (Harvard University Press, 2015) Bruce Ackerman, We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution (Harvard University Press, 2014) Balkinization Symposium on We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution Joseph Fishkin, Bottlenecks: A New Theory of Equal Opportunity (Oxford University Press, 2014) Mark A. Graber, A New Introduction to American Constitutionalism (Oxford University Press, 2013) John Mikhail, Elements of Moral Cognition: Rawls' Linguistic Analogy and the Cognitive Science of Moral and Legal Judgment (Cambridge University Press, 2013) Gerard N. Magliocca, American Founding Son: John Bingham and the Invention of the Fourteenth Amendment (New York University Press, 2013) Stephen M. Griffin, Long Wars and the Constitution (Harvard University Press, 2013) Andrew Koppelman, The Tough Luck Constitution and the Assault on Health Care Reform (Oxford University Press, 2013) James E. Fleming and Linda C. McClain, Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues (Harvard University Press, 2013) Balkinization Symposium on Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues Andrew Koppelman, Defending American Religious Neutrality (Harvard University Press, 2013) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Failing Law Schools (University of Chicago Press, 2012) Sanford Levinson, Framed: America's 51 Constitutions and the Crisis of Governance (Oxford University Press, 2012) Linda C. McClain and Joanna L. Grossman, Gender Equality: Dimensions of Women's Equal Citizenship (Cambridge University Press, 2012) Mary Dudziak, War Time: An Idea, Its History, Its Consequences (Oxford University Press, 2012) Jack M. Balkin, Living Originalism (Harvard University Press, 2011) Jason Mazzone, Copyfraud and Other Abuses of Intellectual Property Law (Stanford University Press, 2011) Richard W. Garnett and Andrew Koppelman, First Amendment Stories, (Foundation Press 2011) Jack M. Balkin, Constitutional Redemption: Political Faith in an Unjust World (Harvard University Press, 2011) Gerard Magliocca, The Tragedy of William Jennings Bryan: Constitutional Law and the Politics of Backlash (Yale University Press, 2011) Bernard Harcourt, The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order (Harvard University Press, 2010) Bruce Ackerman, The Decline and Fall of the American Republic (Harvard University Press, 2010) Balkinization Symposium on The Decline and Fall of the American Republic Ian Ayres. Carrots and Sticks: Unlock the Power of Incentives to Get Things Done (Bantam Books, 2010) Mark Tushnet, Why the Constitution Matters (Yale University Press 2010) Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff: Lifecycle Investing: A New, Safe, and Audacious Way to Improve the Performance of Your Retirement Portfolio (Basic Books, 2010) Jack M. Balkin, The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life (2d Edition, Sybil Creek Press 2009) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Beyond the Formalist-Realist Divide: The Role of Politics in Judging (Princeton University Press 2009) Andrew Koppelman and Tobias Barrington Wolff, A Right to Discriminate?: How the Case of Boy Scouts of America v. James Dale Warped the Law of Free Association (Yale University Press 2009) Jack M. Balkin and Reva B. Siegel, The Constitution in 2020 (Oxford University Press 2009) Heather K. Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System Is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press 2009) Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008) David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007) Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007) Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007) Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006) Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006) Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006) Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006) Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006) Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005) Sanford Levinson, ed., Torture: A Collection (Oxford University Press 2004) Balkin.com homepage Bibliography Conlaw.net Cultural Software Writings Opeds The Information Society Project BrownvBoard.com Useful Links Syllabi and Exams |