Balkinization: Highlights from Congressional Hearing, With Brief Commentary

Highlights from Congressional Hearing, With Brief Commentary

Brian Tamanaha

As reported by MSNBC:

Torture "is basically subject to perception," CIA counterterrorism lawyer Jonathan Fredman told a group of military and intelligence officials gathered at the U.S.-run detention camp in Cuba on Oct. 2, 2002, according to minutes of the meeting. "If the detainee dies, you're doing it wrong."

Shocking. Disgraceful.

"The guidance that was provided during this period of time, I think, will go down in history as some of the most irresponsible and shortsighted legal analysis ever provided to our nation's military and intelligence communities," said Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.).

Understatement.

Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.), the committee chairman, asked: "How on Earth did we get to the point where a United States government lawyer would say that . . . torture is subject to perception?"

Absolutely no respect for the law.

Fredman, whose agency had been granted broad latitude by Justice Department lawyers to conduct harsh interrogations of suspected terrorists, listed key considerations for setting a similar program at the Cuban prison. He discussed the pros and cons of videotaping, talked about how to avoid interference by the International Committee of the Red Cross and offered a strong defense of waterboarding.

"If a well-trained individual is used to perform this technique, it can feel like you're drowning," he said, according to the meeting's minutes, which do not provide a verbatim transcript.

Criminal.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the administration's consistent policy has been to treat detainees humanely and within the law. "Abuse of detainees has never been, is not, and will never be the policy of this government," he said at a news briefing yesterday.

Bald-faced lie.

Posted 11:34 AM by Brian Tamanaha [link]

Comments:

Oh.. i see .. it's not torture unless you think it's torture ..

where, oh where, dear lawd ..did this administration come up with so many willful idiots ??

the obdurate mendacity of this administration and it's minions is dispicable ...

# posted by

Jkat : 12:09 PM

And today you have the Washington POst article of medical exams of 11 Gitmo and Iraq detainees confirming they were tortured. It is at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/18/AR2008061800336.html?hpid=topnews

Best,
Ben

# posted by

Benjamin Davis : 12:18 PM

So let me get this straight: Lindsey Graham thinks (y'know, when his head is not firmly planted up McCain's ass) that the advice and conclusions of the administration's lawyers were insufficient to protect the rule of law and to assure the legal treatment of detainees. Yet... he wants to amend the fucking Constitution to place the decisions of precisely such administration lackeys beyond judicial review through habeas?

Now, I'm sure Bart will be along to explain why Graham is behaving perfectly consisently. (And, if he has time, why black is actually white.) But it seems to me that the good Redneck -- I mean, Senator from South Carolina needs to rethink his principles. As in, get some.

# posted by

Anonymous : 1:07 PM

Excellent commentary from Balkinization contributor, Scott Horton:

Torture from the Top Down

# posted by

manonfyre : 1:12 PM

Jkat:

Oh.. i see .. it's not torture unless you think it's torture ..

No. It's not "torture" unless the guy dies. This is "bright line" law.

Something our correspondent "Bart" has been insisting on for quite a while. The line has indeed been drawn, and it's pretty "black-and-white", a line that no sentient person should have difficulty in understanding.

Cheers,

# posted by

Arne Langsetmo : 2:15 PM

Ben Davis's link to the evidence of torture blue-clickified.

Cheers,

# posted by

Arne Langsetmo : 2:17 PM

The House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is holding a hearing right now on detainee interrogation policies. Lawrence Wilkerson (Colin Powell's former chief of staff who said the torture policies emanated from the VP's office is testifying). It's on C-Span 3.

# posted by

Marjorie Cohn : 2:56 PM

you can watch it live via the internet at:

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

# posted by

Jkat : 3:30 PM

Marjorie Cohn:

The House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is holding a hearing right now on detainee interrogation policies. Lawrence Wilkerson (Colin Powell's former chief of staff who said the torture policies emanated from the VP's office is testifying). It's on C-Span 3.

Who will play Dick Cheney in "Judgment at Nuremberg II"? Burt Lancaster is dead....

Cheers,

# posted by

Arne Langsetmo : 3:37 PM

you know arne .. in the late-mid 1960's..as a young pilot ..considered to be a "high risk of capture" [all marine and naval aviators slated for duty in Viet Nam were classified as such] i went through a version of SERE ..called then "Escape-Evasion and Resistance Training" .. at an undisclosed location in washington state .. it was an undisclosed location.. we later figured.. because to a man .. all of us would have stomped the livin' daylights out of any and all of our "instructors" if we'd ever encountered them on a public street .. that was over 40 years ago .. and i still feel the same way today ... some things you just never "get over" ...

# posted by

Jkat : 5:00 PM

I said:

No. It's not "torture" unless the guy dies. This is "bright line" law.

Something our correspondent "Bart" has been insisting on for quite a while. The line has indeed been drawn, and it's pretty "black-and-white", a line that no sentient person should have difficulty in understanding.

And even then, is it really illegal if no one gets prosecuted?:

"... Fredman’s concerns were clearly addressed by the Bush Administration, because many people did die in detention, in conditions connected to the application of torture techniques (there are at least a dozen such cases already documented), and in none of these cases has a responsible person been punished."

Cheers,

# posted by

Arne Langsetmo : 5:20 PM

# posted by

Arne Langsetmo : 5:20 PM

yes.. you can say that again ..

yes .. you can say that again ..

[snicker]

# posted by

Jkat : 5:33 PM

Its only torture if someone dies you say?

NADLER: Colonel Wilkerson, in your prepared testimony, you write that “as I compiled my dossier for Secretary Powell, and as I did further research, and as my views grew firmer and firmer I had to reread that memo (of February 7, 2002), “I needed to balance in my own mind the overwhelming evidence that my own government had sanctioned abuse and torture, which at its worse had led to the murder of 25 detainees and at least 100 detainee deaths. We have murder at least 25 people in detention. That was the clear low point [lower end of the range] of the evidence.” Your testimony said 100 detainees have died in detention; do you believe the 25 of those were in effect murdered?

WILKERSON: Mr. Chairman, I think the number’s actually higher than that now. Last time I checked it was 108, and the total number that were declared homicides by the military services, or by the CIA, or others doing investigations, CID, and so forth — was 25, 26, 27.

NADLER: Were declared homicides?

WILKERSON: Right, starting as early as December 2001 in Afghanistan.

NADLER: And these were homicides committed by people engaged in interrogations?

WILKERSON: Or in guarding prisoners, or something like that. People who were in detention.

NADLER: They were in detention, not trying to escape or anything, declared homicides by our own authorities.

# posted by

WOHJR : 11:46 PM

on a related note:

Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba:
[USA ret.]

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. "The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture," he wrote.

[emphasis mine ]

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# posted by

Osman Atarci : 9:48 AM