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Wednesday, June 18, 2008
The Haynes Scenarios
Marty Lederman
On November 27, 2002, DOD General Counsel William Haynes advised Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld that use of the following interrogation techniques (among others) were legal, and recommended that Rumsfeld approve their "blanket" use -- advice that Rumsfeld adopted on December 2, 2002:
Comments:
-- Which means that the second scenario must be the truth --
. You seem to have reversed the order somewhere. In context, it's clear that you menat to say the FIRST of the two scenarios's applies. . Go ahead and delete this post if/after you repair the article.
Agreed. Given the March 14, 2003 was the cramdown for the Working Group and the March 14 essentially tracked the same ground as the August 1, 2002 - the dissembling on when he read the OLC is very transparent effort to cover for the Justice Department.
Folks, this is hand and glove stuff (or left hand washing the right hand). One of the 5 of the Torture Team is going to come clean if a grand jury and indictment process starts - I am certain of it. I suspect they hope Bush will pardon them, but I suspect he is perfectly willing to let them take the fall for him and the other National Security Principals whose dirty work they did. Just waiting for the canary. Best, Ben
Haynes himself met, at GTMO, with David Addington, John Yoo and CIA General counsel John Rizzo . . . just before the lawyers at GTMO decided to consider the cruel techniques.
Marty, did you include John Yoo's name intentionally or by accident? I've read Tab 6 in yesterdays document dump as well as Sand's Torture Team book and neither mention Yoo as accompanying Haynes, Gonzales, Chertoff, etc. to Gitmo. If Yoo did in fact go to Gitmo, it would be the biggest smoking gun of this whole disgusting affair.
Thanks, Land -- I meant to write Alberto Gonzales (recipient of the Yoo memo), not John Yoo, there -- and now I'm trying to confirm reports that AG, and not only his Deputy Tim Flanigan, was there
Not a problem, Marty. Here's the list that Sands gives (via his Vanity Fair article):
On September 25, as the process of elaborating new interrogation techniques reached a critical point, a delegation of the administration’s most senior lawyers arrived at Guantánamo. The group included the president’s lawyer, Alberto Gonzales, who had by then received the Yoo-Bybee Memo; Vice President Cheney’s lawyer, David Addington, who had contributed to the writing of that memo; the C.I.A.’s John Rizzo, who had asked for a Justice Department sign-off on individual techniques, including waterboarding, and received the second (and still secret) Yoo-Bybee Memo; and Jim Haynes, Rumsfeld’s counsel. It's fascinating that the minutes released yesterday also place Michael Chertoff there as well (Sands apparently didn't know that - one wonders who else was there that we don't know about yet). I think that this is a key fact. Yoo notes in his March 14th memo that "the Criminal Division concurs" with his opinion. Chertoff was the head of the Criminal Division at the time. And yet here, we have Chertoff making a trip down to Guantanamo 6 months before March memo and only a month after the August 1st memo. What are the odds that Chertoff talked to Yoo about what he witnessed? Pretty high, if you ask me.
. . . they hope Bush will pardon them, but I suspect he is perfectly willing to let them take the fall . . .
Bush's saving Scooter suggests he'll save them too. Whether that's a reward for taking one for the team or reducing their incentive to tell the public what they know, I could not say.
Prof. Lederman:
In his testimony yesterday, [Haynes] implausibly stated that he did not recall whether he had read that memo, or relied upon it, when he acted on November 27th. If we 'determine' that Haynes has committed war crimes, and is thus an 'illegal combatant', would it be possible to waterboard him to see if his memory improves? If he objects to such treatment, can we invoke estoppel to say that his demurrer cannot be entertained? Cheers,
jpk:
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Bush's saving Scooter suggests he'll save them too. Whether that's a reward for taking one for the team or reducing their incentive to tell the public what they know, I could not say. Preznitential Medals of Freedom all around, I'd guess.... Cheers,
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Jack M. Balkin and Reva B. Siegel, The Constitution in 2020 (Oxford University Press 2009)
Heather K. Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System Is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press 2009)
Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008) Neil Netanel, Copyright's Paradox (Oxford Univ. Press 2008)
David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007) Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007)
Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007)
Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006)
Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006)
Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006)
Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005)
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