Balkinization  

Friday, March 28, 2008

Defending My "Devotion to the Forms of Legality," "Verging on Fanaticism"

Marty Lederman

Guilty as charged. Yes, careful lawyer that I try to be, I did include a qualification to suggest that maybe there could, one day, be some case in which a newspaper should refrain from publishing a story about rampant illegality, affecting the privacy of tens or hundreds of thousands of U.S. persons, authorized by the President of the United States (in part on a theory that he has the constitutional authority as Commander in Chief to disregard the law). I can't just now think of what that case might be; but who knows? Hence, my assumption that the Times applied a strong, almost irrebuttable presumption in favor of publishing (once it was convinced the program was unlawful), rather than a bright-line rule. But I agree with David -- it's hard to imagine an easier case than this one.

Did the program "benefit the nation," in the sense of providing the intelligence community with relevant and important information it would not have obtained under FISA? I certainly hope so. But then, that would be true, in spades, if the President simply ignored all legal restrictions on intelligence-gathering -- an Executive unbounded by laws regulating surveillance, detention, interrogation, etc., would undoubtedly obtain far more information about the enemy than an Executive who takes care that such laws are faithfully executed.

And therefore . . . what, exactly? If that sort of "benefit" were a sufficient reason to refrain from publishing, then newspapers would never reveal any wrongdoing undertaken for security-related reasons (or for any other public purpose, for that matter). Eric doesn't suggest such a rule, of course -- he would ask the Times to weigh the benefits of lawbreaking against the "costs." I'm sure that at some level, the Times made such a calculation, based on what little they knew (i.e., as with Eric and me, not very much). Indeed, they invited the Administration to make the case that the program was legal, or that this was the rare case in which, despite the illegality of the program, the cost/benefit balance was so out of whack that my presumed "presumption" in favor of publishing a story about gross executive lawbreaking should have been rebutted. As it turns out, however, the Administration gave them very little reason to rebut the presumption -- and what it did say to the Times turned out to include representations that the Times discovered to be blatantly false, which left the Times with no reason at all to think that the presumption should be overcome -- and with a great deal of skepticism that the sky would, indeed, fall.

Callous disregard for the real costs and benefits? Hardly. What the Times knew, and what Eric conspicuously ignores, is that we as a nation had already engaged in a wide-ranging, detailed, and contested debate, over three-plus years, about the various costs and benefits of allowing the executive free reign to engage in domestic electronic surveillance, and we had reached a consensus about the proper resolution of such calculations in the manner prescribed by the Constitution: We enacted a law, by overwhelming majorities of both houses of Congress, and with the support of Presidents of both parties -- the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. And Congress had repeatedly amended that law over the years whenever the executive made the case that the cost/benefit analysis had changed. (Eric confidently states that the NSA program did not, so far as we know, "actually injure anyone." This is just another way of saying that Eric disagrees with the vast majorities of Presidents, legislators and the public who have concluded that there are real harms when the government surveilles its citizens' e-mails and phone calls.)

To be sure, President Bush thought that the Congress, and all Presidents before him, had miscalculated the costs and benefits, and that this was a bad, bad law. But he also had good reason to believe that, even after 9/11, he would not have been able to persuade the Congress and the public to change that law in the manner he desired. And so he willfully disregarded it. That is to say, he violated it.

Under these circumstances, would it really make much sense for the Times to have attempted to independently evaluate whether Congress was "right" to enact FISA and its amendments -- whether Bush's cost-benefit analysis was more reliable than the one codified in careful detail in Titles 18 and 50? Wouldn't it make more sense for the Times to presume (there's the lawyer in me again!) that our national consensus of costs and benefits should receive the benefit of the doubt? (And this is even before we add to the mix what Eric cavalierly (grudgingly?) refers to as the "costs" of our Executive branch systematically and secretly running roughshod over the law itself. Here, Eric, I'm afraid you'll have to indulge me my "fanatical . . . devotion to the forms of legality." That's not only the lawyer in me -- it's the citizen, too.)

In any event, did the Times actually have reason to believe that its story would cause any substantial harms at all? Notably, the Administration failed to make such a case to the Times. And if the Administration couldn't convince the Times of the "costs," why should the newspaper decline to publish? The Administration's theory of harm, apparently, was that the NSA would have to suspend the program if it were publicly revealed. And in one sense that was true: Once the Times story broke, the FISA court took steps (a year later) to effectively bring the Administration into compliance with the law, which temporarily brought a halt to the program in early 2007 -- but only until the Administration could persuade Congress that there was a need to enact changes to the law to allow the program to resume once again. To the extent that was a "cost" -- prompting our legal system to work the way it was supposed to, rather than to allow the President to unilaterally arrogate all decisionmaking to himself, notwithstanding the law -- it's hardly one that should have given the Times pause; indeed, the debate within the FISA court, and with the Congress and the public, that resulted from the Times' decision to publish, and that continues to this day, is one of the great virtues of its stories.

Ah, but even if the program is back up and running, isn't it far less effective today because its existence (though not any details about NSA capabilities) has been brought to light? In other words, Eric seems to be saying, isn't a secret program secretly operated in the teeth of a law that appears to prohibit it more effective than one that has received public legal sanction? Eric quotes Jack Goldsmith as having written that the "revelations by Risen and Lichtblau had alerted our enemies, put our citizens at risk, and done ‘great harm' to the nation." Like Eric, I know Jack well, and I believe he was entirely sincere in writing that. Perhaps he;s even correct. But Jack -- who is appropriately scrupulous about not revealing any classified information -- has not been able to provide either me or Eric with any reason to believe that the Times story tipped off al Qaeda in any way that diminishes NSA intelligence-gathering. And, more importantly, the Administration was not able to provide the Times with any plausible explanation of why that would be true, either. What does al Qaeda know now that it did not know (or have good reason to suspect) before it heard of Lichtblau and Risen?

Orin suggests that the real problem was not the Times stories, but the revelation in the Risen book that the NSA was intercepting foreign-to-foreign calls routed through U.S. switches. I think there are a couple of problems with this theory (besides the fact that it is not a criticism of the Times or Lichtblau). The first is that, if I recall correctly, the Administration has disclaimed the notion that the NSA program involves "sitting on the switches" and sweeping up calls indiscriminately from those switches, such as for purposes of data-mining. (Orin, do I have that right?) More importantly, my understanding (perhaps mistaken) is that even before State of War was published, it was not a secret that most foreign calls were routed through U.S. switches and, most important of all, as David Kris has repeatedly stressed, there was never anything unlawful, under FISA or other laws, about intercepting such foreign-to-foreign calls, in the first place. As the Washington Post reported three weeks ago:

Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell . . . has repeatedly said FISA should be changed so no warrant is needed to tap a communication that took place entirely outside the United States but happened to pass through the United States. But in response to a question at [an ABA] meeting by David Kris, a former federal prosecutor and a FISA expert, [Assistant Attorney General Kenneth] Wainstein said FISA's current strictures did not cover strictly foreign wire and radio communications, even if acquired in the United States.

That is to say, there was no reason for al Qaeda, even before 2006, to believe that the NSA could not, or would not, surveille all of its foreign-to-foreign phone calls -- and that one effective and lawful way for NSA to do so would be to intercept such calls at U.S. switches, without the need for a judicial order. The NSA program revealed by Risen and Lichtblau presumably did not change that practice, which could have been initiated even before 9/11. (Of course, when it comes to these sorts of technical questions, I'm hardly an expert; therefore I welcome corrections or qualifications from Orin and others.)

Now, surveillance of foreign-to-foreign e-mails might have been covered by FISA (as "electronic surveillance" under 1801(f)(4)), if acquired from storage on a server in the United States, because stored e-mail is neither a "wire communication" nor a "radio communication" under FISA. Did Risen's book reveal that the NSA was intercepting such e-mails without court orders? If so, it might have revealed to al Qaeda this much: that although U.S. law requires a court order for such interceptions, the NSA was in fact ignoring that law, and intercepting the e-mails without judicial approval. Assuming there were those within al Qaeda who parse FISA that closely, it would remain the case that all Risen's book would have revealed to such persons was that the NSA was not following a court procedure that U.S. statutes prescribed. If al Qaeda was sending certain e-mails on the assumption that they would not be intercepted because the American executive branch was complying with FISA (is this sounding sufficiently ridiculous yet?), Risen's book arguably let them in on a secret, not about NSA surveillance capabilities, but about the fact that the Executive branch was refusing to follow U.S. statutory law. If that's the secret that the book revealed -- that al Qaeda should not uncritically assume the NSA will abide by FISA's requirements for court orders for foreign-to-foreign e-mails routed through the States -- well, can Risen really be criticized for that? After all, that would not have revealed anything about secret NSA capabilities when the agency is complying with the law.

Finally, Eric stresses that insofar as the Times' rationale for publication depended on its conclusion that the NSA program was unlawful, the Times ignored the fact that the program's illegality "was in the process of being corrected by Justice Department lawyers before the story was released." In other words, the Times' story did not, in Eric's view, have even the virtue of bringing to a halt an ongoing unlawful practice; and, as such, the Times's revelation of past illegal conduct (in the John Yoo era) might have been an inadequate justification for revealing a current, legal program of great value: "The Times made that particular outcome-a lawful program that was also effective because it was secret-impossible by publicizing it to the world."

Again, I'm not so sure the Times made an "effective" program impossible: The progam is once more in operation, and the Administration has vociferously and continuously argued that it is of enormous value.

But more to the point, even the "modified" program, as apparently approved by Jack Goldsmith, was quite plainly unlawful -- or so, I think, the Times should have concluded. Jack's theory, apparently (and here I stress once again that I am basing this solely on public sources), was that the program was lawful because Congress authorized it -- in effect, in part repealed FISA by implication -- when, on September 18, 2001, it authorized the President to use all necessary and appropriate military force against those responsible for the 9/11 attacks. This legal theory is defended in great detail in the DOJ "White Paper" issued on January 19, 2006.

I have enormous respect for Jack's legal acumen, and for the critical corrective role he played at OLC, which I have repeatedly lauded. But, with all respect, the "AUMF" theory for why the revised NSA program was legal simply doesn't pass muster, for reasons I have written about repeatedly. (See for example the letters collected here and here; and posts such as this and this.) Other than Eric, there are few serious scholars or lawyers who have tried to defend the argument and, more importantly, as far as I know not a single legislator of the hundreds who voted for the AUMF has agreed that they intended to thereby authorize a surveillance program that circumvented FISA, or has even given the AUMF theory any credence: the argument has met with uniform ridicule among those legislators who voted for the AUMF, including some who are defenders of the NSA program on other grounds.

All of which is to say that the Times had every reason to think the NSA program continued to be unlawful. In any event, the Times story would have been justifiable even if it had only brought to light the fact that before March 2004, the President had authorized a far less discriminating NSA program of remarkable (and still largely unknown) breadth, based on a legal theory so preposterous -- so much more indefensible than even the AUMF argument! -- that the entire top echelon of the Justice Department, Goldsmith included, threatened to resign if the President did not abandon it.

Comments:

Patrick Radden Keefe's 2005 book "CHATTER" reveals international eavesdropping that should send chills up and down the spines of those who value privacy and freedom that could be invaded by the misuse of "chatter" that is gathered and analyzed by computers picking up what have been identified as "key" words associated with terrorists but sweeping up innocents.
 

What is not being discussed in this debate over costs and benefits is the complete lack of evidence of costs.

The erroneous assumption in the defenses of the NYT is that violation of FISA, itself of highly questionable legality under the Constitution, somehow equals spying on innocent Americans.

The NYT never claimed it had evidence that the TSP was actually targeting innocent Americans. Instead, they played the innuendo to suggest that this was the case.

After the NYT disclosed the TSP to the enemy in violation of the Espionage Act in conspiracy with a leaker who violated the classified materials statutes, there is still not a scintilla of evidence that the TSP is targeting innocent Americans. Indeed, the Dems on the intelligence committees have questioned and toured the NSA to personally observe the TSP in action and NONE of them claim that the TSP is targeting innocent Americans.

Even if one assumes that the provisions of FISA which seek to direct foreign intelligence gathering were constitutional, where is the cost of violating the law if the TSP is not harming innocent Americans?

This being the case, let us take a look at costs an benefits:

On the costs side of the equation, Jack Goldsmith with access to the actual facts states: "I agreed with President Bush that revelations by Risen and Lichtblau had alerted our enemies, put our citizens at risk, and done ‘great harm' to the nation."

The reply that the enemy did or should have known about the TSP is untenable in view of the fact that the TSP was gathering actionable intelligence against the enemy prior to the NYT's disclosure. Those targets obviously did not know they were being surveilled, at least not until they were informed by the NYT.

On the benefit side, the NYT disclosed a harmless violation of a law of questionable constitutionality. Even if one assumes FISA is constitutional, the NYT had no evidence whatsoever of actual harm in the form of targeting innocent Americans.

If one assumes that the NYT was motivated to disclose the TSP to the enemy out of concerns that it violated FISA without any evidence of harm to innocent Americans, then the NYT must be a collection of fanatic legal formalists.

However, how does a legal formalist balance the NYT conspiring with a source to violate the classified materials statutes and its own violations of the Espionage Act after being specifically informed of the harm to the country against a violation of FISA with no evidence of harm to the country?

The NYT did not give a fig about the law. Rather, it used a violation of FISA to play the innuendo that the TSP was spying on innocent Americans without any evidence whatsoever that this was actually the case. The far more likely motivations were to sell a book and newspapers with the added benefit of damaging and Administration they oppose.
 

Bart, please. Slate readers might be watching.

What the Administration was doing was evidently dubious enough that the FBI director and the Acting AG threatened to quit rather than allow it to continue without modification.

That's illegal enough to be newsworthy.

I see from the papers that a 22yo entrepreneur has been selling dud ammo to the Pentagon for the use of the Afghans.

Why did the NYT report this? Now the enemy will know about the dud ammo! Lives are jeopardized!

And no Americans were being harmed by this technical illegality.

So why publish???
 

"What is not being discussed in this debate over costs and benefits is the complete lack of evidence of costs."

That is silly; it's obvious that it has costs -- doing anything has costs. What's lacking is any real evidence of benefits, especailly when one considers the history of rulers claiming or exercising absolute powers without regard for the law.
 

Even if one assumes that the provisions of FISA which seek to direct foreign intelligence gathering were constitutional, where is the cost of violating the law if the TSP is not harming innocent Americans?

So the argument you're making is that it's okay to break the law if nobody gets hurt?

Hm. Yeah.

It might be that the law is unconstitutional, in which case the Administration should seek a way to challenge it in court. It may be that the law is simply bad law, in which case the Administration should go to Congress and ask for amendments or even repeal. But one might assume that what shouldn't happen is that the branch of government charged with enforcing the laws shouldn't be breaking them.

One might even go so far as to say that breaking the law is in and of itself a harm to society: that's sort of an underlying premise of a society of laws.
 

anderson said...

What the Administration was doing was evidently dubious enough that the FBI director and the Acting AG threatened to quit rather than allow it to continue without modification.

That was resolved a year prior to the the NYT disclosure.

I see from the papers that a 22yo entrepreneur has been selling dud ammo to the Pentagon for the use of the Afghans.

Why did the NYT report this? Now the enemy will know about the dud ammo! Lives are jeopardized!


How?

The dud ammo itself is jeopardizing lives. The reporting may save lives.

This is the complete opposite of the TSP disclosure.

The TSP was saving lives by stopping terrorists. Disclosing the TSP to the enemy puts lives at risk.
 

eric said...

BD: Even if one assumes that the provisions of FISA which seek to direct foreign intelligence gathering were constitutional, where is the cost of violating the law if the TSP is not harming innocent Americans?

So the argument you're making is that it's okay to break the law if nobody gets hurt?


In many cases, yes.

FISA is a procedural statute where Congress is essentially handing its oversight over to a court, which itself is constitutionally suspect.

Violation of a procedural rule where no one was harmed is generally not considered to be a prosecutable crime by most DAs. This is even more so the case when the prosecutor has signed off on the legality of the "violation" and the executive notified both the executive and court of the action it was taking.
 

How?

The Taliban would not have known the Afghan government was using bad ammo until the NYT report. That seems pretty obvious.
 

garth sullivan said...

bart continues to advocate trading liberty for security...

How so?

My entire point is that the NYT did not have and still cannot offer a single scintilla of evidence that the TSP was targeting innocent Americans and compromising their liberty.

You show me evidence that Mr. Bush targeted innocent Americans for some nefarious purpose and I will lead the impeachment band.
 

I respect ML's efforts here though find them somewhat a waste of time on a certain level.

The theme of the other side appears to be that our free press really shouldn't print stuff the gov't doesn't want it to, you know, trust them and all, because they know best.

As ML suggests, one need not be absolutist about this (with apologies to Black and Douglas) to find this amusing on some level. Surely by NOW. But, it would be amusing (and horrendous) at any time under the 1st Amendment.

The need to have these discussions is on some level sad.
 

The NYT never claimed it had evidence that the TSP was actually targeting innocent Americans. Instead, they played the innuendo to suggest that this was the case.

We KNOW, beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, that the Nixon Administration was abusing its ability to spy on national enemies by turning those abilities on innocent Americans. It is an entirely reasonable presumption (As human nature doesn't change very much over the course of just a few decades) that the Bush Administration was similarly abusing its powers.
 

It is an entirely reasonable presumption (As human nature doesn't change very much over the course of just a few decades) that the Bush Administration was similarly abusing its powers.

Rich, I support your idea in general--that the pattern of prevarications and half-truths produced by this administration is sufficient to make a reasonable person suspicious of assurances in the absence of fact--but I have to disagree with the notion that human nature has anything to do with it.

This behavior is learned and cultivated, not inherited. :)
 

Let's set forth some fairly simple facts that should not be controversial.

(1) We don't know what the so-called TSP consisted of, other than that it was scaled back as a result of the general DOJ revolt.

(2) The NYT did not reveal what the program consisted of.

(3) The assumption that terrorists therefore knew all the details the NYT did not publish and changed their behavior accordingly is absurd.
 

rich:

Let me get this straight...

Because we have actual evidence that Nixon (not to mention Kennedy and LBJ) spied on innocent Americans over 30 years ago means that it is "reasonable" to assume that Mr. Bush was doing the same even though the NYT and you have no actual evidence that this is the case.

Well, I have to admit that it does appear the NYT and its defenders are using this "reasoning."

You really don't see the problem with this argument, do you?
 

enlightened layperson said...

Let's set forth some fairly simple facts that should not be controversial.

(1) We don't know what the so-called TSP consisted of, other than that it was scaled back as a result of the general DOJ revolt.

(2) The NYT did not reveal what the program consisted of.

(3) The assumption that terrorists therefore knew all the details the NYT did not publish and changed their behavior accordingly is absurd.


It is correct that the NYT has not yet disclosed all of our post 9/11 intelligence gathering to the enemy.

Does this gain them brownie points IYHO?
 

You really don't see the problem with this argument, do you?

Nope. If people who were not members of, or close allies of this Administration were informed in a comprehensive manner (Standing in a room and observing a bunch of whirring and clicking computers doesn't count) as to precisely what the Administration was doing, then we can reasonably presume that they were doing something objectionable, something that we citizens would veto without a second thought.

If, during late 2002, the Administration had taken opponents like Senators Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy behind closed doors and showed them solid evidence that Saddam Hussein was a genuine threat, then they could be believed. As the Administration refused to do this, opponents of the war such as myself, concluded that the Administration was consciously and deliberately lying and that they knew full well that there was no threat.

Same thing here. As the Administration has refused to take political opponents into its confidence, we on the other side of the political fence have no reason whatsoever to think that they're telling the truth.
 

rich said...

As the Administration has refused to take political opponents into its confidence, we on the other side of the political fence have no reason whatsoever to think that they're telling the truth.

The leaders of each party in the House and Senate as well as the intelligence committees were equally informed by the Administration.

Defending the NYT's reprehensible actions is a losing proposition. They had and still have no evidence that the TP was targeting innocent Americans.
 

Defending the NYT's reprehensible actions is a losing proposition. They had and still have no evidence that the TP was targeting innocent Americans.

# posted by Bart DePalma : 3:48 PM


Baghdad, as someone who continues to defend the disaster in Iraq, you would not seem to be a credible judge for what is a losing proposition.
 

They had and still have no evidence that the TP was targeting innocent Americans.

Oh, is that the standard?

Then good, because Bart has no evidence that the NYT impaired any intelligence gathering.

-- I mean, if we're going to start caring what *evidence* there is.
 

anderson said...

They had and still have no evidence that the TP was targeting innocent Americans.

Then good, because Bart has no evidence that the NYT impaired any intelligence gathering.


You mean apart from the statements of Goldsmith and other folks who have access to the intelligence...
 

It is correct that the NYT has not yet disclosed all of our post 9/11 intelligence gathering to the enemy.

Does this gain them brownie points IYHO?


In short, the NYT did not reveal what kind of surveillance the Administration was using, only that it was not obtaining warrants as required by law. Why this news was of such value to Al-Qaeda is something you have never explained very clearly. Allow me to quote Prof. Lederman from this very post:

Did Risen's book reveal that the NSA was intercepting such e-mails without court orders? If so, it might have revealed to al Qaeda this much: that although U.S. law requires a court order for such interceptions, the NSA was in fact ignoring that law, and intercepting the e-mails without judicial approval. Assuming there were those within al Qaeda who parse FISA that closely, it would remain the case that all Risen's book would have revealed to such persons was that the NSA was not following a court procedure that U.S. statutes prescribed. If al Qaeda was sending certain e-mails on the assumption that they would not be intercepted because the American executive branch was complying with FISA (is this sounding sufficiently ridiculous yet?), Risen's book arguably let them in on a secret, not about NSA surveillance capabilities, but about the fact that the Executive branch was refusing to follow U.S. statutory law.

Would you care to address this excellent point?
 

el:

1) To start, the NYT informed the enemy the NSA was successfully intercepting its telecommunications. Given that we were doing so, the enemy was obviously not aware of this vulnerability. Even if the enemy was told nothing else, they now knew to use alternative means of communications or to encrypt their telecommunications.

2) The NYT informed the enemy that their foreign telecommunications were being run through the United States and were being intercepted there, which was not a well known fact.

3) The NYT informed the enemy of our source of their telephone numbers - captured documents and computers. This let the enemy know to use alternative storage or to encrypt that storage.

4) The NYT informed the enemy that we not only were monitoring the captured phone numbers, but also multiple levels of contacts beyond those initial numbers. Thus, even if they figured out which numbers were captured and possibly compromised, they were then also informed that we had the capability to compromise communications beyond those lost numbers.

5) The NYT informed the enemy that we were not restricting our surveillance to targets where we already had probable cause for warrants. This substantially increases the scope of our potential penetration into their network. Sleeper agents and supporters who had no direct link to al Qaeda and for whom the enemy could assume no probable cause for surveillance existed were now vulnerable. The enemy would take counter measures to protect these potential targets when they would not have before.

6) The NYT let the enemy know the cell attempting to drop the Brooklyn Bridge was compromised by this program. If the enemy knew what communications went back and forth with that cell, you can reverse engineer the surveillance and plan to avoid the same mistakes in the future.

7) Keeping the enemy informed of future legal restrictions on the TSP enables them to adjust their risk management accordingly.

The enemy was obviously ignorant of our capabilities even when some of our more sophisticated citizenry was not. However, the enemy is not stupid and rapidly learns from their mistakes.

No matter how you spin this, the NYT giving the enemy an intelligence coup for no good reason whatsoever is simply indefensible.
 

The leaders of each party in the House and Senate as well as the intelligence committees were equally informed by the Administration.

Media Matters calls this claim the second of Twelve myths that the Bush Administration has pressed on this issue. to take just one aspect:

"As The New York Times reported on December 21, Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), former Sen. Bob Graham (D-FL), Senate Intelligence Committee ranking member John D. Rockefeller IV (D-WV), and Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) have stated that they did not receive written reports from the White House on the surveillance operation, as required by the National Security Act

...

"As the Times reported on December 20, Rockefeller said on December 19 that his concerns "were never addressed, and I was prohibited from sharing my views with my colleagues" because the briefings were classified. The December 21 Times report noted that House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said she too sent a letter to the Bush administration objecting to the secret surveillance operation..."

This last aspect is especially troubling because it points up the utter uselessness of informing Congresspeople and Senators while at the same time swearing them to secrecy. If they can't consult with staff people or outside experts, they can't perform adequate oversight.
 

Let's all look under our beds tonight for the monsters that the NYTimes has exposed us to. Repetition is just a combination of regurgitation and gas. An antacid might help.
 

1) To start, the NYT informed the enemy the NSA was successfully intercepting its telecommunications. Given that we were doing so, the enemy was obviously not aware of this vulnerability. Even if the enemy was told nothing else, they now knew to use alternative means of communications or to encrypt their telecommunications.

Considering that your first claim is completely absurd, I'm guessing that it's not worth reading the rest.
 

FISA is a procedural statute where Congress is essentially handing its oversight over to a court, which itself is constitutionally suspect.

The Fourth Amendment is a procedural "statute" where the Founders essentially handed oversight over to a court.

The Fifth Amendment is a procedural "statute" where the Founders essentially handed oversight over to a court.

Oh, the humanity.....

Cheers,
 

Violation of a procedural rule where no one was harmed is generally not considered to be a prosecutable crime by most DAs.

I'll remember that when I'm in court for a left turn violation.

It should be no surprise that someone around here defends DUIs, possibly with that very argument....

Cheers,
 

My entire point is that the NYT did not have and still cannot offer a single scintilla of evidence that the TSP was targeting innocent Americans and compromising their liberty.

"Bart" knows this to be true because he's talked to Lichtblau and Risen, and they've assured him that their sources told them that no such things happened.

Cheers,
 

To start, the NYT informed the enemy the NSA was successfully intercepting its telecommunications.

<*BZZZZT!*> Nope. It is the maladministration that has been (repeatedly and strenuously) been making this specific claim. In fact, Prof. Lederman actually pointed this out in his post. For those that care to read and understand, that is.

Cheers,
 

[applause] thank you for a spirited.. pithy .. succinct and entertaining discussion ..
 

I suspect that Al Qaeda (and practically all other "terrorists" who considered the matter) believed particularly after 9/11 (and perhaps even before) that the USG was monitoring and recording all electronic communications (in the broadest non-legal sense of the term) that were technically possible to monitor and record, that the only constraints on the monitoring and recording were technical, econnomic and human limitations, and that the USG considered US law little more than a suggestion it could ignore whenever it wanted to. If you were AQ, wouldn't you believe the same? So did Lichtblau and Risen cause harm by confirming much of this?
 

in response to the "there isn't any evidence" meme ..in my strictly lay opinion .. the fact the government has hidden the body and forbidden anyone to look for it or mention there might be one ..is not evidence a murder has not been committed .. when there is a body of evidence establishing probable cause a murder has in fact taken place ..

we don't normally rely strictly on the suspect's denial and claims to the truth of that denial alone to squelch investigation and close out the books ..

and in any instance where the suspect has been proven time and again to be without veracity .. and has proven they can't even spell the term .. prudence and good practice would argue against accepting the statement at face value.

pardon me ..and carry on.
 

jkat said...

we don't normally rely strictly on the suspect's denial and claims to the truth of that denial alone to squelch investigation and close out the books ..

You are not relying upon the "supect's" denial.

The NYT's leakers with knowledge of the program do not claim that the TSP is targeting innocent Americans.

All the Dem members of the Intel Committees who were allowed to inspect the program do not claim that the TSP is targeting innocent Americans.
 

All the Dem members of the Intel Committees who were allowed to inspect the program do not claim that the TSP is targeting innocent Americans.

# posted by Bart DePalma : 7:39 PM




since the members of the committee who inspected the program were barred under penalty of law from saying anything about it one way or another mr. depalma .. their silence on the matter is hardly proof of a lack of illegal activity.

historically.. programs without oversight have been subject to abuse..all of them..

a "reasonable man" would have just cause to doubt the claim it has not occurred in this instance as well.

probable cause is not a standard of protection i have to grant my government...

if a judge ..having reviewed the matter in camera.. were to inform me no illegal abuse had taken place i would accept the statement as a fact .. but when the only party holding the facts refuses review except by it's own lights then reasonable people have every right to suspect illegal activity is a part of thing being hidden.

to my simple mind you're asserting [1]the right of habeas corpus should be extended to a branch of government which has exercised it's power to conceal the body using the state secrets act and then [2]claiming the absence of the body so concealed is proof the body does not exist..

it's a circular argument.. the statement is own proof and the proof is rooted in the statement.

it may satisfy you but it doesn't satisify me.

let's take the issue before a neutral third party .. the judiciary .. and if in fact your client has nothing to hide let the judge tell me so...

imo there's more than ample probable cause here for reasonable people to suspect the law has been broken.

surely a simple review of the evidence by an independent party isn't too much to ask to set the matter to rest.
 

When love is not madness it is not love.
Agen Judi Online Terpercaya
 

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