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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Boilerplate
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Thursday, December 27, 2007
Boilerplate
Marty Lederman
Well, Attorney General Mukasey testified that he would try to be less adversarial toward Congress -- less inclined to articulate constitutional objections where to do so would only inflame relations.
Comments:
another boiler plate might read:
(As the contemporary manifestation of the banality of evil. See Hannah Arendt 1963.) We construe this law as we see fit, most likely in a way that is consistent with our political objectives, regardless of civil liberties or our obligation to defend the constitution. The rest of you - congress, lay people, pretty much every law professor except for a handful of (John) Yooities- can kvetch all you want but, notwithstanding the purported full faith and credit clause, there is NOTHING you can do but issue self-gratifying and cathartic blog posts because the American People don't give a s*** about their diminishing freedoms. But hey American Idol, Deal or No Deal, Britney's sister is knocked up . . . now that sounds interesting, not this nerdy law stuff . . . You're FREE (to do as we tell you)
forgive me I referenced the wrong faith clause from the Constitution in my last post.
in my previous post, the sentence that reads: notwithstanding the purported full faith and credit clause should actually read: notwithstanding the purported clause in Article 2 of the Constitution that the president shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed
Marty:
Do you know if any court has ever used a presidential signing statement to actually decide a case?
Or if any court has ever cited the absence of a presidential signing statement as a waiver of the President's right to challenge the constitutionality of a statute which he signed into law?
This doesn't have anything to do with courts, Bart. The question is whether and when the President disregards statutes. Please read the linked post on the Georgetown site.
marty:
A signing statement claiming the power to ignore a statutory provision and actually acting contrary to the provision are two entirely different matters. The fact that a President claims in a signing statement that a statutory provision does not limit one of his Article II powers does not mean that the President is in fact acting contrary to the statutory provision. Consequently, no matter how much detail the President puts into a signing statement, it is not evidence that the President is ignoring the attached law. My interest was instead in why the President's lawyers feel the need to issue ubiquitous signing statements. You suggested, correctly I think, that the Executive appears to be concerned with avoiding even the appearance of waiving the President's power to challenge an unconstitutional statutory provision after he signed it into law. However, I am unaware that any court has granted a presidential signing statement any precedential value in deciding whether a statute is constitutional. I posed my questions to you and the other posters to determine if you were aware of any cases which had. In any case, I find this waiver argument curious in view of the fact that the Courts have held that the President may make his or her own determination of a statutory provision's constitutionality and may ignore unconstitutional statutes. Consequently, there is no need for the President to go to the courts to challenge statutes only to face a waiver defense. I suppose Congress could bring a suit to enforce a statue the President is ignoring and theoretically make a waiver argument, but I do not recall such a case being brought in the past. In sum, I just cannot get worked up over presidential signing statements. With all due respect to Mr. Addington, they appear to be more fodder for bloggers and the likes of Charlie Savage, Phillip Cooper, Neil Kinkopf and Christopher Kelley to scribble about than actions of actual legal import.
Can the president confer to him/herself any new powers via signing statements?
Are they legally binding? If not, why issue them at all?
You suggested, correctly I think, that the Executive appears to be concerned with avoiding even the appearance of waiving the President's power to challenge an unconstitutional statutory provision after he signed it into law.
I read it as just a hearty "GFY! Watcha gonna doooo about it ... we're the law round here...." If he wants to challenge the constitutionality, you'd think he'd take it to court. Cheers,
"Bart" DePalma:
In any case, I find this waiver argument curious in view of the fact that the Courts have held that the President may make his or her own determination of a statutory provision's constitutionality and may ignore unconstitutional statutes.... This is true of any ol' Joe Blow on the streets as well. Whoopdedoo.... ... Consequently, there is no need for the President to go to the courts to challenge statutes only to face a waiver defense. What's with this "straw man" 'waiver defense'? Unless you can show that there's some kind of laches in operation WRT the Constitution (if we don't exercise our free speech rights, we've lost them?!?!?), why don't you be a dear and stop flogging this dead horse? Thanks is advance. Cheers,
arne:
Marty is assuming, and I tend to agree, that these signing statements are meant to argue that the President is not waiving the power to challenge the constitutionality of a statute by signing the bill. Waiver is a legal defense and speculating how such a legal defense might be employed is perfectly germane to Marty's post and not a red herring at all. A President may not seek an advisory opinion from the court on a constitutional question. Even if an Article III court agreed to render such an opinion, there is no opposing party to exercise a waiver defense. In fact, the courts have held that a President may make his own determination that at statute is unconstitutional and decline to enforce it. Thus, because the President does not have to go to court, I am unsure how a waiver defense can be employed. I speculated that Congress could sue the President seeking to enforce a statute which the President has determined is unconstitutional as is not enforcing. I cannot see how a waiver defense can be employed offensively under such a suit. In short, even if a President can theoretically waive the power to challenge a statute's constitutionality, I am having a hard time seeing that signing statements have any legal import because there is no opportunity to exercise such a waiver defense of a statute. It appears that Addington, et al., are being too clever by half.
"Bart" DePalma:
Marty is assuming, and I tend to agree, that these signing statements are meant to argue that the President is not waiving the power to challenge the constitutionality of a statute by signing the bill. No. The only mention of waiver made by Prof. Lederman was that Addington could make that 'argument' ... based on the hopelessly vague and obtuse signing paragraph singled out for scorn by Prof. Lederman. It is you that persist with this "waiver" argument. And it's bogus. Waiver is a legal defense and speculating how such a legal defense might be employed is perfectly germane to Marty's post and not a red herring at all. Well, if Dubya actually took one of these issues to court and "waived" some supposed point, and if someone else relied on that behaviour, you might argue estoppel ... but I doubt it would be accepted by any proper judge; this is constitutional law here, not some civil claim in law or equity. A President may not seek an advisory opinion from the court on a constitutional question.... Oh, BS. Dilan has already taken care of this one. No one is looking for an "advisory opinion" on some hypothetical question. ... Even if an Article III court agreed to render such an opinion, there is no opposing party to exercise a waiver defense. Huh?!?!? WTF are you talking about? Are you just making sh*te up as you go?!?!? In fact, the courts have held that a President may make his own determination that at statute is unconstitutional and decline to enforce it.... Addressed above, but you studiously ignored it. To repeat for the brain-dead, anyone can make their own "determination" and act accordingly. In fact, it is you with your OCD about "advisory opinions" that would have to maintain, against all evidence and a number of court cases, that in fact a person wishing to challenge the constitutionality of a law must take the risk and violate that law in order to create the "case or controversy"; intention to do so in the future is too ... ummm, "hypothetical". ... Thus, because the President does not have to go to court, I am unsure how a waiver defense can be employed. To be honest, "Bart", I don't see much point in discussing the hypotheticals of the mechanics of claiming of a "waiver defense" that exists in your hallucinogenic imagination only. You know, for me to comment on this might be a kind of "advisory opinion". I speculated that Congress could sue the President seeking to enforce a statute which the President has determined is unconstitutional as is not enforcing. I cannot see how a waiver defense can be employed offensively under such a suit. I'd say just ITMFN. But no one's given him a BJ yet. In short, even if a President can theoretically waive the power to challenge a statute's constitutionality, I am having a hard time seeing that signing statements have any legal import because there is no opportunity to exercise such a waiver defense of a statute. It appears that Addington, et al., are being too clever by half. Addington's never been "clever". But I agree, signing statements are, outside of the purpose I've posited above, pretty much useless from a legal perspective (which is something that Prof. Lederman alluded to in his comment to you above as well). If they indicate a concrete and discernible intention to do something specific, they might be the equivalent of a "notice of intent to sue", and be considered good manners at the very least. But as to Dubya's version of such, I maintain the position of my first comment above. Cheers,
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