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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Eternity is a Long Time to Pay for a Mistake (Religion in the Public Sphere)
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Thursday, December 20, 2007
Eternity is a Long Time to Pay for a Mistake (Religion in the Public Sphere)
Brian Tamanaha
The leading candidates from both parties in this presidential election make a point of emphasizing their religious convictions, which naturally raises questions about what role their beliefs will have in their decisions as President. A president who believes that Armageddon is just around the corner may see herself as a heroic instrument of God’s plan, and act accordingly (if you scoff at this, you are not paying attention). This prospect is unsettling to non-believers, as well as to adherents of minority religions.
Comments:
"I wonder what the Secularist’s response will be to this exchange?"
That Pascal's Wager has always been a silly, presumptuous argument?
Even if there is a god of some kind, who says it won't treat believers and non-believers equally?
Better yet, what if it's not the Christian version of God and it punishes them for their stupidity in worshipping the wrong God? Since all of this is unknowable, it makes no sense to worry about it.
In political matters, the believer need not cite solely to God's authority to argue that God's moral teachings on how to live on Earth are the correct path to follow and thus start a fight. Rather, these moral teachings stand on their own and their advantages can be proven scientifically.
Thankfully, life after death is not of this Earth and, therefore, is not a necessary subject of political debate. We will all find out the answer to this article of faith soon enough.
Rather, these moral teachings stand on their own and their advantages can be proven scientifically.
This is nothing but gibberish. By definition you can't prove anything about "God" scientifically.
I have always wondered, what evidence do we have that there is a heaven or a hell? Who came back from heaven and escaped from hell to report on both hereafter "areas"?
Philip Snyder
Baghdad, I think would be great if you proved any one of God's moral teachings for us. I'll even help you. The first step is to scientifically prove the moral teaching came from God.
You can take it from there...
My goodness! Are people still using Pascal's Wager and expecting themselves to be taken seriously? I thought that even Pascal recognized that it was an illegitimate argument, and was only put forth as a rhetorical bit of sophistry.
I propose a new debating rule, a la Godwin's law (i.e., Pascal's Wager = disqualification from serious debate).
Must these attacks on religious believers in politics always be cast in the terms of a purported neutrality? A discourse from which discussion of God has been scrubbed is not a discourse that is neutral between the believer and the atheist. Much is taken to follow from the existence of God, but nothing much follows from atheism. How can we ask the believer in a certain form of eschatology to say "the world is going to end soon, and therefore it would be best to do X, but because other people don't share this belief I ought to STFU and instead advocate for a completely different and inconsistent policy"? It's completely incoherent.
Incidentally, atheism doesn't entail that there's no afterlife, only that there are no gods. So Father Araujo’s hypothetical discourse is actually possible. (This is a pet peeve; I'm a nonreligious atheist, but am merely agnostic as to afterlives.)
The proper response to Pascal's Wager has always been:
"And when we both die, Thor will smite us out of Asgard for being un-believers."
Father Araujo [from the post]:
I could say, “You may be right, Secularist, that it is all over when we die. But I ask you to consider the following: we both will die (however that happens), and this event is inevitable. You may look at me and say, ‘see I (the Secularist) was right. You have wasted a lifetime.’ But, my suggestion to you is this: But if I (the theist) am right, I will not have wasted a lifetime, but you will have wasted an eternity.” Pascal's Wager rewarmed. Addressed here amongst other places. This twist is an interesting take, though. Can somene else force you to "make a bad bet" through the power of gummint? I think Prof. Tamanaha's scepticism (so to speak) of this is pretty compelling: If non-believers make political decisions by the lights of their best moral judgments, the fact that they wrongly do not believe in the Christian story does not prevent Christians from enjoying eternal salvation. No harm done to them, at least with respect to the hereafter. However, if Christians make political decisions by the lights of Christian doctrine, and it turns out that there is no God or that Christianity is wrong about the nature of things (two distinct possibilities), then Christians will have inflicted their false religious beliefs on others, with immediate consequences. Indeed. Keep your religion off my freedom. Thanks in advance. Cheers,
In political matters, the believer need not cite solely to God's authority to argue that God's moral teachings on how to live on Earth are the correct path to follow and thus start a fight. Rather, these moral teachings stand on their own and their advantages can be proven scientifically.
And the scientific "proof: for the first four "Commandments" is?: ________ I refer to them as the Thee and Half Commandments, the Two and a Half Good Ideas, and the Four Manifestations of a Vengeful and Jealous Deity. The eedjits and prevaricators that insist the U.S. was founded on the Ten Commandments (e.g. David Barton et al.) are wrong. Matter of fact, the Constitution doesnt' even address the crimes mentioned in the Three and a Half Commandments; that's mostly statutory law at the state level. Matter of fact, except for the effect on interstate commerce, a state could legalise murder should it so desire and the U.S. gummint would have no say in the matter. Cheers,
i stopped worrying about "heaven" and "hell" when i realized how many of them there were purported to be. i mean, which one(s) are we talking about? hebrew? animist? sumerian? xtian? and anyway, hell always sounded like more fun; praising a god for all eternity would be really dull for me. i was around 10 when i came to these conclusions; i hope everyone exposes their kids to the vagueries of world religions early and in depth.
arguably all moral and political views, when traced back far enough, have religious influences not really. "atheist" or not-believing philosophers are as old as 'the West.' or East, for that matter, or anywhere. there have always been political, social and educational movements which 'doubt the gods' and posit another social order/system of human life not based on divine instruction. they haven't always been the authors of "history," that's the main problem. so we forget about them. A discourse from which discussion of magical pink elephants has been scrubbed is not a discourse that is neutral between the believer and the atheist. fixed your typo. Much is taken to follow from the existence of God, but nothing much follows from atheism. wrong. a great deal "follows" from atheism, i invite you to try it and find out for yourself. for starters, atheists have no problem perceiving how cynical, atheist, ideologues will use religious belief to manipulate the masses and distract them from issues that actually have an impact on their lives. to begin with.
I caught a snippet of NPR last night, where the interviewee was the mayor of a town that's tried to be relatively inclusive in its public Xmas decorations - they added a Wiccan star, for example.
The fellow sounded nice enough but exasperated with some of the requests he's received. MAYOR: And then there was the Flying Spaghetti Monster which is a ... what is it? MAYOR'S PAL IN BACKGROUND: An internet parody of religion. MAYOR: An internet parody of religon. It was a bit of a hoot to hear the FSM even mentioned. So, remember -- you can bet that there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster ... but is it really worth the risk?
If there is a God, sign me up for the opposition.
He's totally irresponsible, and needs to be brought down. But then, there is no evidence of any such thing. We may have souls, but they don't exist after death, except in the things we did and the ideas we do in life. The only good in the universe is the good we do ourselves. And if I meet any greybeard Patriarch after I die, who seems Hell bent on excluding me from His Dominion, there is a particular episode of the Twilight Zone that might serve as a useful guide.
I think the more interesting question based on Father Araujo's is the following: how will the policies you enact now affect your children and theirs, and so on? Our actions will have an impact on our children.
Worrying about my future in an afterlife of some sort is selfish to a degree that is almost repulsive.
Bartbuster writes:
Bart: Rather, these moral teachings stand on their own and their advantages can be proven scientifically. This is nothing but gibberish. By definition you can't prove anything about "God" scientifically. In all fairness, bart didn't really make an assertion about proving anything about god scientifically, just that the advantages of "god's morals" can be verified scientifically. It would have been interesting if he had cited some research. Of course that having morals has advantages says nothing about belief in god or an afterlife. Perhaps off topic and perhaps not, but the notion the one must believe in god and/or an afterlife in order to have moral fiber entirely ignores buddhism, which doesn't really have a formal teaching about either, and still provides moral direction.
In all fairness, bart didn't really make an assertion about proving anything about god scientifically, just that the advantages of "god's morals" can be verified scientifically.
He made the claim that the morals came from God. If he wants the "scientific proof" to give God credit for the benefits of these supposed morals, he damned well better have some science that shows God is responsible.
In order to be happy oneself it is necessary to make at least one other person happy.
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