| Balkinization   |
|
Balkinization
|
Thursday, November 29, 2007
A Poor Substitute: Why Substituting the Government for the Telecoms Won’t Work
Guest Blogger
Justin Florence and Matthew Gerke
Comments:
Regardless of whether the telecoms or the government is the defendant, the key issues are the same - whether the plaintiffs were the targets of this surveillance and thus have standing and whether the government TSP was unlawful.
In order to answer these questions, the plaintiffs must be allowed discovery of the means, methods and targets of the TSP. The means, methods and targets of the TSP are highly classified and clearly fall under the State Secrets Privilege. The argument that the means, methods and targets of the TSP somehow become less secret because the defendant is a telecom instead of the government is not particularly strong. No court has allowed this backdooring. Consequently, the substitution of the government for the telecoms in these suits should not affect the exercise of the state secrets privilege. The purpose of substitution legiislation is to keep the plaintiffs from financially punishing the telecoms for assisting in the defense of our country. Given that these cases generally fail for standing and even the most political judge hearing one of these cases has not attempted to pierce the state secrets doctrine to allow plaintiffs to troll through top secret NSA records, financially punishing the telecoms is the only real reason for this litigation. This litigation is akin to a SLAAP suit and should be stopped by Congress. The job of oversight of top secret intelligence gathering programs belongs to Congress.
"Bart" just loves it that plaintiffs don't have 'standing' to sue, despite the fact that they may very well have been injured in fact, because it's all Sooper-Dooper Tippy-Toppy-Secret, you see.
This includes such as Maher Arar and Khalid el-Masri, who have no doubt as to their injuries, not to mention the folks that were told that they were illegally snooped on, but are required by the court to blank their minds as to this and fergettaboutit..... Makes perfect sense to me ... after all, the state comes first: The Homeland Uber Alles.... Cheers,
Just a comment about persuasive writing. IMHO, the second argument is much stronger than the first one. I'd switch the order of presentation.
arne:
As a defense attorney, standing is one of the first things I check out in a new lawsuit and I do indeed love it when I can get a suit against my client kicked to the curb before it really begins. As for the TSP, it is highly unlikely that any of the plaintiffs in these punitive suits have ever been targeted and have standing. The only exception of which I am aware was an Oregon "Islamic charity" which had been previously convicted of being an al Qaeda funding front. In that case, a Justice attorney had a brain fart and allegedly disclosed a document which indicated the al Qaeda front was among the TSP targets, which makes perfect sense. However, I believe the judge in that case held that the document at issue was still classified and could not be published by the plaintiff. Even in the case of the al Qaeda front, the plaintiff will have a difficult time proving actual damages unless the evidence with which they were convicted was derived in violation of the 4th Amendment from TSP surveillance. Justice would have to be stupid to do so, but it is possible.
Re Mr. DePalma's "an Oregon 'Islamic charity' which had been previously convicted of being an al Qaeda funding front," nothing in my few minutes of research has revealed a conviction. Charges fly but that's it. Does anyone have a source that goes beyond indictments?
Wikipedia says that all charges against the al-Haramain Foundation, which I believe to be the one referenced, were dropped by a federal judge, and that a UNSC committee has banned it.
The means, methods and targets of the TSP are highly classified and clearly fall under the State Secrets Privilege.
The central question-- and I don't know if we will ever get a straight answer from the courts on this-- is whether anything can be protected by the State Secrets Privilege if it is illegal. The foundational state secrets cases involved either negligence during a legal activity (Reynolds) or breach of a legal contract with a secret agent (Totten). The correct result would be for the courts to rule that if the surveillance programs are illegal, they can't be state secrets. Whatever powers the executive branch has to classify, they do not extend to programs that themselves violate the law. After all, if the President is violating the law, the correct remedy is to stop him, not allow him to keep it secret.
dilan:
I would suggest that the general rule that criminal activity does not fall under executive privilege would also apply to state secrets privilege. However, this would require a criminal prosecution requesting the evidence ala the Nixon case. I have doubts this doctrine would extend to ACLU civil fishing expeditions. In reality, the most practical venue for oversight of classified foreign intelligence committees is by the congressional intelligence committees.
larry koenigsberg said...
You are correct and I had a poor memory about the legal status of the al-Haramain Foundation. This al Qeada front group was not convicted in a US criminal court. Rather Treasury and the UN have administratively shut down al-Haramain Foundation. “Terrorism Financing: Origination, Organization, and Prevention: Saudi Arabia, Terrorist Financing and the War on Terror," a detailed analysis of al Qaeda and other jihadi financing provided to the Governmental Affairs Committee in 2003, includes an extensive analysis of al-Haramain Foundation. The al-Haramain Foundation is exactly the type of foreign front organization which should be the target of intelligence gathering.
"Bart" DePalma:
I do indeed love it when I can get a suit against my client kicked to the curb before it really begins. As you [should] know, "standing" is a prudential rule derived from the "cases" or "controversies" Constitutional limitation of the judicial power. A person must have an actual interest at stake and cause to participate in the judicial proceeding; sham parties are looked down on (although sometimes and under certain conditions the courts may recognise a substitute 'standing in' for the actual party in interest). When there is nothing that can be done, or the party's interests aren't at stake in any decision, they are turned away at the gate. Saying (truthfully) that someone has no "standing" is not a bad thing; it is what you (as a lawyer and officer of the court) should do ... if you can show it. But that is not the situation here. Here the parties are unarguably injured; the "block" to their standing is a notion that for someone to admit or allow evidence of their culpability for this would harm "national interests" and that their claims must bow to the common good, regardless of how well founded or of how injured they were (consider multimillion dollar suits for 'slander' against the torture and sexual abuse that Khalid el-Masri suffered). If a normal defendant in a civil suit was to raise a defence that giving up evidence of their wrongdoing would harm them in some other way regardless of their culpability, the courts would laugh their sorry a$$es right out of the courtroom. What the U.S. is saying is not that the plaintiffs have no "standing" ... in fact they refuse to comment one way or another on the particular allegations. They say, "State secrets! State secrets! You can't prove 'standing'! Nya-nya-nyah!!!" If the United States didn't wiretap these people, didn't kidnap and render Arar and torture el-Masri, then they ought to just say that. They don't ... and you know why. The idea that plaintiffs suits ought to be tossed because there are certain "state secrets" that should not be divulged is a court-manufactured "privilege" (talk about "judicial activism") that has no basis in the Constitution or statutory law. If there is to be a "state secrets privilege", it ought to be the legislature that decides, and determines the parameters of such. If anyone needs any confirmation of this, they need look only at the actual "particulars" of the Reynolds case. Cheers,
"punitive suits"
Oh, my!!!... I had been thinking that all civil suits were just love-ins with tons of patchouli oil and mantras being hummed.... Cheers,
I would suggest that the general rule that criminal activity does not fall under executive privilege would also apply to state secrets privilege. However, this would require....
...an administration willing to actually prosecute its own wrong-doing. Special counsel, please. That did the trick in Nixon's case. Cheers,
Typo there, "Bart":
The only exception of which I am aware was an Oregon "Islamic charity" which had been previously convicted of being an al Qaeda funding front. [...] However, I believe the judge in that case held that the document at issue was still classified and could not be published by the plaintiff. That's spelled "remembered". That's what the court ordered. That's what's so frickin' bizarre about this stuff. Next thing you know, they'll say that el-Masri won't be allowed to recall his captivity, beatings, and torture, and Arar won't be allowed to remember his rendition from JFK and his days at the Damascus Sheraton.... If no one 'knows' about it, did a crime really occur? The perennial philosophical question ... for Solipsists. Cheers,
arne:
1) Standing: We are talking about the frivolous civil suits against the telecoms concerning the TSP. We are not talking about the al Masri rendition case. Apart from arguably the al-Haramain Foundation, none of these plaintiffs have anything approaching standing as targets of the TSP. 2) Punitive Suits: Yes, punitive. These suits against the telecoms are similar to a broad array of so called "civil rights" suits or corporate SLAAP suits, which have very little legal merit but are brought to punish or shake down the target defendant by inflicting legal fees and bad publicity.
"Bart" DePalma:
1) Standing: We are talking about the frivolous civil suits against the telecoms concerning the TSP.... What's "frivolous" about a civil suit based on statutory violations of FISA? ... We are not talking about the al Masri rendition case. Apart from arguably the al-Haramain Foundation, none of these plaintiffs have anything approaching standing as targets of the TSP. And you know this exactly how?!?!? 2) Punitive Suits: Yes, punitive. These suits against the telecoms are similar to a broad array of so called "civil rights" suits or corporate SLAAP [sic] suits,... Ummmm, no. Or, rather, utter BS. A "SLAPP" (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) is filed by corporations against citizens to scare off the proletarian rabble that may be trying to get some changes. You've got it (besides the spelling) bass-ackwards. ... which have very little legal merit but are brought to punish or shake down the target defendant by inflicting legal fees and bad publicity. The telecoms are far better placed to handle large lawsuits than the individual plaintiffs here. And if they weren't (and even if they were), maybe they ought not to have broken the law.... You know, you don't have a BoR "right" to be free from lawsuits you might find annoying.... Cheers,
arne langsetmo said...
BD: 1) Standing: We are talking about the frivolous civil suits against the telecoms concerning the TSP.... What's "frivolous" about a civil suit based on statutory violations of FISA? No standing and no evidence. BD: ... We are not talking about the al Masri rendition case. Apart from arguably the al-Haramain Foundation, none of these plaintiffs have anything approaching standing as targets of the TSP. And you know this exactly how?!?!? Read the briefs. No evidence at all that the TSP targeted them. 2) Punitive Suits: Yes, punitive. These suits against the telecoms are similar to a broad array of so called "civil rights" suits or corporate SLAAP [sic] suits,... Ummmm, no. Or, rather, utter BS. A "SLAPP" (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) is filed by corporations against citizens to scare off the proletarian rabble that may be trying to get some changes. And how does a SLAPP suit scare off the defendants? Legal fees and bad publicity. ... which have very little legal merit but are brought to punish or shake down the target defendant by inflicting legal fees and bad publicity. The telecoms are far better placed to handle large lawsuits than the individual plaintiffs here. So what? Theft does not become less of a crime if the victim of the theft can afford it. And if they weren't (and even if they were), maybe they ought not to have broken the law.... And your evidence is?
really a cool blog... great inputs fantastic.. i m fan of ur blog... even i have a blog please visit and give me feedback http://aadat247.blogspot.com/
really a cool blog... great inputs fantastic.. i m fan of ur blog... even i have a blog please visit and give me feedback http://aadat247.blogspot.com/
Post a Comment
|
Books by Balkinization Bloggers Andrew Koppelman, The Tough Luck Constitution and the Assault on Health Care Reform (Oxford University Press, 2013)
James E. Fleming and Linda C. McClain, Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues (Harvard University Press, 2013) Balkinization Symposium on Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues
Andrew Koppelman, Defending American Religious Neutrality (Harvard University Press, 2013)
Brian Z. Tamanaha, Failing Law Schools (University of Chicago Press, 2012)
Sanford Levinson, Framed: America's 51 Constitutions and the Crisis of Governance (Oxford University Press, 2012)
Linda C. McClain and Joanna L. Grossman, Gender Equality: Dimensions of Women's Equal Citizenship (Cambridge University Press, 2012)
Mary Dudziak, War Time: An Idea, Its History, Its Consequences (Oxford University Press, 2012)
Jack M. Balkin, Living Originalism (Harvard University Press, 2011)
Jason Mazzone, Copyfraud and Other Abuses of Intellectual Property Law (Stanford University Press, 2011)
Richard W. Garnett and Andrew Koppelman, First Amendment Stories, (Foundation Press 2011)
Jack M. Balkin, Constitutional Redemption: Political Faith in an Unjust World (Harvard University Press, 2011)
Gerard Magliocca, The Tragedy of William Jennings Bryan: Constitutional Law and the Politics of Backlash (Yale University Press, 2011)
Bernard Harcourt, The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order (Harvard University Press, 2010)
Bruce Ackerman, The Decline and Fall of the American Republic (Harvard University Press, 2010) Balkinization Symposium on The Decline and Fall of the American Republic
Ian Ayres. Carrots and Sticks: Unlock the Power of Incentives to Get Things Done (Bantam Books, 2010)
Mark Tushnet, Why the Constitution Matters (Yale University Press 2010)
Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff: Lifecycle Investing: A New, Safe, and Audacious Way to Improve the Performance of Your Retirement Portfolio (Basic Books, 2010)
Jack M. Balkin, The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life (2d Edition, Sybil Creek Press 2009)
Brian Z. Tamanaha, Beyond the Formalist-Realist Divide: The Role of Politics in Judging (Princeton University Press 2009)
Andrew Koppelman and Tobias Barrington Wolff, A Right to Discriminate?: How the Case of Boy Scouts of America v. James Dale Warped the Law of Free Association (Yale University Press 2009)
Jack M. Balkin and Reva B. Siegel, The Constitution in 2020 (Oxford University Press 2009)
Heather K. Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System Is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press 2009)
Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008)
David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007)
Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007)
Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007)
Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006)
Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006)
Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006)
Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006)
Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005)
Sanford Levinson, ed., Torture: A Collection (Oxford University Press 2004) Balkin.com homepage Bibliography Conlaw.net Cultural Software Writings Opeds The Information Society Project BrownvBoard.com Useful Links Syllabi and Exams |