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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Need to Know?
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Tuesday, October 02, 2007
Need to Know?
Marty Lederman
Jack Goldsmith testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee this morning. His prepared remarks can be found here.
Comments:
Obviously, the reason these officials were not "read into" the program until Goldsmith and Ashcroft insisted upon it was not fear that they would leak vital information to Al Qaeda, but instead that the legal justification was so transparently flawed that it could not withstand any independent review at all -- a judgment that turned out to be true, of course ...
Isn't that how it typically works with secrecy - the state uses it to cover up its misdeeds? I'm not so surprised as Prof. Lederman, but it's long been obvious that Cheney has no respect for cabinet officials who might disagree with him, let alone for their subordinates.
This almost looks like security through obscurity - trying to hide the fact they're hiding things, so that nobody will try to look for hidden things.
Unless the President has a legal question for a particular government attorney which absolutely requires he or she be read in on the program, there is not a single attorney in the government which has a military need to be read in on any intelligence gathering program.
The first rule of counter intelligence is to keep all top secret programs compartmentalized to the fewest possible people with a real need to know. Even if the party read in has no intent to reveal the program to the enemy, it is human nature to share secrets. Thus, the fewer personnel, the better. Mr. Goldsmith's testimony calling for more lawyering of war is at odds with the parts of his book critiquing how the war fighters are overly bound by lawyering to the point where they can no longer do their jobs properly. Mr. Goldsmith noted that this over lawyering simply did not exist prior to Vietnam. Indeed, his comparison between today and WWII is very illustrative. FDR never would have considered legally vetting the top secret intelligence gathering programs against the Japanese and Germany or the Marshall Plan. Those military programs were extremely compartmentalized to preserve their security. Given the repeated disclosures of our most top secret intelligence gathering programs against al Qaeda, it is obvious to even the greenest intelligence officer that the compartmentalization of these programs should have been far greater rather than loosened by adding still more attorneys to debate the process. Mr. Goldsmith obviously picked up very little counter intelligence knowledge during his very brief stint as OLC or he would not be giving this ignorant testimony. A basic counter intelligence course obvioulsy should be mandatory for anyone read into these programs.
Bart, while the points you make may make some sense in theory, in practice, this comes down to the predilection of the particular administration to abuse.
If you have an administration that is very careful and scrupulous about following the law, perhaps the compartmentalization rationale outweighs the need to ensure that legal opinions are subjected to group dynamics and criticism. On the other hand, if you have an administration that is interested in expanding executive power as far as possible (even beyond the limits of Article II, whatever those limits may be), establishing precedents that it can disobey statutes and constitutional provisions, and simply looking for any legal rationale it can point to, no matter how flimsy, to justify pushing the limits, I would tend to think that the need for some sort of real legal discussion among people who don't have a maximalist conception of executive power outweighs the need for compartmentalization. Therefore the answer to this question really depends on what you think the essential character of the Bush Administration is-- are they rule-followers or rule-stretchers and rule-breakers?
As expected, the good professor shut down the comment section on his last post on the Webb Iran bill. I give this one a few more hours before the ax falls.
Last time I referred to the fact that Mr. Goldsmith's views did not match the party line here, the comments section was shut down about an hour later... Touchy, touchy.
"Bart" DePalma:
Unless the President has a legal question for a particular government attorney which absolutely requires he or she be read in on the program, there is not a single attorney in the government which has a military need to be read in on any intelligence gathering program. Who said anything about a "military need"? If they wanted to see if the program was ... let's say, legal? or constitutional? ... maybe they would want to ask some other lawyers, eh? "Bart"'s doing his "framing" once again; trying to divert the line of discussion into an area he thinks more favourable to his position.... "Bart": Clue fer ya, it may work for Republican supporters and the Freeper crouwd, but it doens't work with the kind of people here..... The first rule of counter intelligence is to keep all top secret programs compartmentalized to the fewest possible people with a real need to know. Even if the party read in has no intent to reveal the program to the enemy, it is human nature to share secrets. Thus, the fewer personnel, the better. OK, You win. How about nobody knows about the program? That would do it for me. Cheers,
Not to be a dumbass, but....
"Bart" DePalma: Given the repeated disclosures of our most top secret intelligence gathering programs against al Qaeda,.... Where? What? How? I kinda missed it..... Truth be told, I think I know a bit more about the technology that "Bart", and nothing I've seen has surprised me (that is definitely not to say "horrified me" or "alarmed me"). So really, "Bart", I must have missed it. Was it buried on page 32 of the New York Times somehere sometime back a bit? I'm serious, "Bart", clue me in. It is, after all, an important part of my business..... Cheers,
"Bart" DePalma:
As expected, the good professor shut down the comment section on his last post on the Webb Iran bill. I give this one a few more hours before the ax falls. You starting to see a pattern? Why don't you do us all a favour and STFU instead of repeating your same ol' trite 'arguments' that have been addressed long ago? Were you to ever enter a discussion honestly, the dialogue might endure (and, to be honest, when we get you off your hooby-horses, it does sometime). When you give the same ol' crapola over and over (resulting in the same ol' refutations), things just go downhill. So time for the 15 minute limit, "Bart". You get your time, you say it once. Choose you course wisely and budget your time. Then the judges decide. That's the way it works. Cheers,
Bart's theory would sound plausible, in a vacuum.
Our actual experience with what happens when legal judgments are made in secret, by true believers who equate dissent with betrayal, does not however support Bart's theory.
marty - i recorded the audio of today's SJC hearing (since c-span did not cover it, and the SJC typically does not mantain their webcasts in an online archive). the mp3 is available at this webpage. hope folks find it useful.
Selise, thanks for the contribution. Having access to the actual sources is fantastic, and people like you who have the forethought to record such events make things wonderful for the rest of us.
arne:
"Bart" DePalma: Unless the President has a legal question for a particular government attorney which absolutely requires he or she be read in on the program, there is not a single attorney in the government which has a military need to be read in on any intelligence gathering program. Who said anything about a "military need"? If they wanted to see if the program was ... let's say, legal? or constitutional? Military need is the only relevant criteria for foreign intelligence gathering. Foreign intelligence gathering by the President is constitutional and cannot be made illegal by Congress because it has no Article I power to direct intelligence gathering. Thus, there is no reason to read in attorneys to debate the merits of foreign intelligence gathering policy on the grounds of determining whether it is constitutional or lawful. "Bart" DePalma: As expected, the good professor shut down the comment section on his last post on the Webb Iran bill. I give this one a few more hours before the ax falls. You starting to see a pattern? Why don't you do us all a favour and STFU... I agree that shutting up opposing views is the purpose of shutting down the comments section.
"Bart" in a nutshell:
Military need is the only relevant criteria for foreign intelligence gathering. IOW, legality is beside the point. Same for military interrogations "for intelligence purposes", too, I suppose. Hello, Nürnberg.... [Arne]: You starting to see a pattern? Why don't you do us all a favour and STFU... I agree that shutting up opposing views is the purpose of shutting down the comments section. No. Shutting it down is an indication that some azo has jumped the shark completely and further discussion is not only unproductive but counterproductive. Your statement I quoted at the beginning of this comment is such an event. If you don't think that this gummint is bound by the law, there is no more to discuss here, and your repeated blather becomes mere noise, suitable for the pages of LittleGreenSnotballs or Freeperville, but not a legal blog. Capece? Cheers,
"This almost looks like security through obscurity - trying to hide the fact they're hiding things, so that nobody will try to look for hidden things.
# posted by bitswapper : 2:49 PM" (above) This comment seems to get to the heart of the Bush administration's secrecy and lack of credibility. Its not so much about national security (I don't know anyone who is unwilling to accept that there are some things that ought not be public in some areas), law or policy so much as about making it impossible for other authorities (i.e. Congress, the courts and the public) to apply critical scutiny to its actions. If you don't know something is going on at all, or even that it is being contemplated, the other participants in our system can't play their necessary part. How can Congress legislate, the Courts decide or the public vote intelligently under these circumstances?
Bart writes:
Post a Comment
Last time I referred to the fact that Mr. Goldsmith's views did not match the party line here, the comments section was shut down about an hour later... Touchy, touchy. Bart, can you recount for the edification of us all here how you were blatantly trolling to try and drive traffic for your own blog? How well did it work for you? Any hits? And, can you somehow manage to not insult the host and his guests, or if you can't stop yourself, try at least to make them sound like adult insults? I know you're capable of that much. Also, I think people here can put up with conspiracy theories, if at least they are well thought out ones.
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