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Friday, September 07, 2007
What the Bush Administration Can Teach Myanmar About Free Speech
Brian Tamanaha
Brave demonstrators in Myanmar continued protests against the ruling junta for several weeks despite harassment and arrests by the government. On August 31, the New York Times reported that:
Comments:
Surrounding protesters with signs and leading counter-cheers sounds to me like countering speech with more speech. Do you have a problem with that? Free speech doesn't mean that no one gets to disagree with you, though university professors and administrators sometimes interpret it that way.
Good point, Sean. In addition, I'd ask the professor whether he thinks it is impossible that terrorist recruiters also infiltrate protest groups (including musicians for peace, poetry readings, and the like)?
We'd better be careful here, though, since our "free speech" can provoke Lederman and Balkin to DELETE THREADS . . . perhaps the Bush Administration Can Teach Myanmar About Free Speech better than Balkinization can.
Surrounding protesters with signs and leading counter-cheers sounds to me like countering speech with more speech. Do you have a problem with that?
I think it should be obvious, even to the Bush Administration and its more rabid supporters, that there's a big difference between actions by the citizens and actions by the government. Citizens exercise their 1st A rights. The tactics described above are government actions designed to suppress those rights. I'd ask the professor whether he thinks it is impossible that terrorist recruiters also infiltrate protest groups (including musicians for peace, poetry readings, and the like)? It's possible that terrorists have infiltrated the Republican party and the Federalist Society. That seems like the most plausible explanation for why those groups support unAmerican policies designed to damage our economy and undermine our freedoms.
I don't believe that the First Amendment or the principle of free speech prohibits whatever administration is in power from rallying its supporters in the public square. Is that what you are suggesting, Mr. Field?
I guess college/young republican organizations, and fraternities/sororities are "State actors" now too ; )
Is it my "free speech" right to call the White House Advance Office and advise them the Manual has been posted on-line?
Mark Field said...
sean: Surrounding protesters with signs and leading counter-cheers sounds to me like countering speech with more speech. Do you have a problem with that? I think it should be obvious, even to the Bush Administration and its more rabid supporters, that there's a big difference between actions by the citizens and actions by the government. Citizens exercise their 1st A rights. The tactics described above are government actions designed to suppress those rights. The advance manual instructed private party members, not government agents, how to deal with protest speech with speech of their own. It is amusing that protesters, whose intent is to disrupt and prevent the President's speech, are whining when GOP party members try the same tactic against them. Goose and gander.
Although several of these responses are quite silly (to some extent, of course, intentionally), I agree with their implicit objection to this type of post. Although I agree with its sentiment, I don't see how it contributes to maintaining the generally high quality of this blog. I am very interested in the bloggers' professional opinions on legal issues, but not at all interested in their personal opinions on political behavior per se.
If there are legal issues hiding in these policies, they should be raised. But the mere observation that the current administration plays an especially hard version of poliical hardball is not exactly a hot news item. There are a few volokh bloggers whom I skip over because of their proclivity to this kind of post. I hope I don't have to put any balkin bloggers on that list. - (Another) Charles
As always.
Reverse the political affiliations of the actors here. Can the conservatives here honestly say that they would have no problem with President Clinton or her staff sending a group of liberals to disrupt a protest by, say, young Republicans? I have no problem with exercising the first amendment by individuals or groups if they want to organize a counter protest. Rally squads should be dispatched to surround and drown out demonstrators immediately. However, when that counter protest is a tool of a government, be it Democrat or Republican, especially when the goal of that counter protest is to stifle protest. See, if the rally squads were an intellectually honest action to support the figure, they wouldn't be trying to stamp out the protest itself rather than merely making themselves be heard on their own.
The comparison between a dictatorship hunting down and beating protesters and our police photographing public protests, attending public protest meetings or -heaven forfend - following court rulings separating the protests and objects of that protest so they can each have unfettered speech is pretty weak.
The fact that the press does not provide as much coverage of wingnut protests as the wingnuts would like says more about how well or not wingnut messages sell papers than about a government conspiracy to stifle speech. In a sprawling free US media where anti Bush programming, books and articles far outnumber pro Bush communications, I have an extremely difficult time taking seriously the claim that Mr. Bush is in any way suppressing speech, nevertheless the claim that his administration is somehow comparable to the Myanmar dictatorship. Get a grip.
I don't believe that the First Amendment or the principle of free speech prohibits whatever administration is in power from rallying its supporters in the public square. Is that what you are suggesting, Mr. Field?
You're dodging. The purpose of the behavior quoted is to diminish the free speech rights of the protestors. That's precisely what the 1st A forbids the government from doing.
Paul said...
As always. Reverse the political affiliations of the actors here. Can the conservatives here honestly say that they would have no problem with President Clinton or her staff sending a group of liberals to disrupt a protest by, say, young Republicans? This would be useful to show the speciousness of the comparison with Myanmar. I protested the traitor Jane Fonda at Boston College back in the day. Members of the Carter Administration would have been welcome at our public meetings and we would have waved at any police taking our photos. Hell, we were protesting to gain attention to our message. Unlike today's leftist protesters attempting to shout down the President and deny his right to speech, we politely listened to Ms. Fonda and her hubby Tom Haden to give their pitch for "economic democracy" (socialism) and then politely attempted to ask questions about her treason with the North Vietnamese. (As a side note, Ms. Fonda did answer two of our questions and proved to be what the Communists called a useful idiot. She actually responded that she did not know much about the North Vietnamese regime and relied upon her husband to keep her informed.) Back to the subject at hand, I would note that, despite our polite behavior, the Boston College paper ran a cartoon of us the next week dressed in the obligatory cartoon Nazi uniforms and wielding clubs against innocent cowering students attempting to attend the speech to absorb the wisdom of Hayden and Fonda. It is interesting that leftists still cannot tell the difference between real fascist thugs like those in Myanmar and opposing partisans with whom they disagree.
oMr. Field, I'm not following you. I believe in free speech even for Nazis, but if the Nazis were having a rally in my town, I might go and join a counterprotest. It's possible that our chants might drown out the Nazi chants, or our signs obscure the Nazi signs, or our group so outnumber them that no one heard or saw them at all. That isn't a violation of their free speech rights.
Too bad about the persistent trolls. I infer that the owners of the blog generally prefer to let people talk, even if the talking is trolling. But as a reader, it's becoming a waste of time to read the comments. For every good thread here are three like this one. At this point, I'd respectfully suggest that the proprietors shut off comments, at least for now. We readers can email the posters, and the posters can put up any replies they think relevant.
PS to Mark Field: Feeding trolls only encourages them.
I guess you all missed the part in the post that refers to government imposed permit policies and to the actions of the police in intimidating protesters and restricting their speech (including being arrested for wearing an anti-Bush T-shirt). You must read Zick's posts to get the full flavor of these actions.
We should also not forget the extent to which the Bush Administration has blurred the line between Republican party actions and government actions (Who was Karl Rove, a paid public servant, working for--the American People or Bush or the Republican Party?). As the post indicates, the advance group utilized the Secret Service and local police to serve their own agenda of "managing protesters." Having said that, I certainly do not equate the Myanmar junta with the Bush Administration. The point of my post is that we too restrict speech for political reasons, albeit in more subtle ways. I find these actions alarming, as should all libertarians who value free speech. It's fine to lecture Myanmar, but we The clock is ticking on the Bush Administration. Those on this comment thread who constantly defend and rationalize everything the Bush Administration has done in the past six years perhaps should begin to think instead about what kind of government we want. So here is the question: do we want a government that finds ways to squelch dissent? Or do we want a government that in good faith encourages--or at least truly allows--dissent? If you believe in the latter, then we should not consider the Bush Administration a model for the future.
No government, or State actor, should squelch dissent in violation of the First Amendment. Can you answer my questions now:
1) Do you think it is impossible that terrorist recruiters also infiltrate protest groups (including musicians for peace, poetry readings, and the like)? 2) Perhaps the Bush Administration Can Teach Myanmar About Free Speech better than Balkinization can? 3) Is it my "free speech" right to call the White House Advance Office and advise them the Manual has been posted on-line?
sparky said...
Too bad about the persistent trolls. I infer that the owners of the blog generally prefer to let people talk, even if the talking is trolling. But as a reader, it's becoming a waste of time to read the comments. For every good thread here are three like this one. At this point, I'd respectfully suggest that the proprietors shut off comments, at least for now. This is amusing considering the theme of the lead post.
Professor Tamanaha:
If you did not intend an analogy between the Myanmar dictatorship and the Bush Administration, why did you make the comparison in your post? In any case, if your objective was to critique the actions cited by Zick as "intimidation," I would suggest that your opening citation to true intimidation by the Myanmar thugs does not advance your argument. Indeed, in comparison to the stories coming out of Myanmar, the Zick complaints sound petty and insignificant.
Which is why I asked whether the the Bush Administration Can Teach Myanmar About Free Speech better than Balkinization can?
oMr. Field, I'm not following you. I believe in free speech even for Nazis, but if the Nazis were having a rally in my town, I might go and join a counterprotest. It's possible that our chants might drown out the Nazi chants, or our signs obscure the Nazi signs, or our group so outnumber them that no one heard or saw them at all. That isn't a violation of their free speech rights.
Last time: your hypothetical is NOT what the post is criticizing. It's fine if you counterprotest the Nazis. What's not fine is for the government to organize the counterprotest.
It is in fact an attempt to dilute a person's free speech when a group surrounds a speaker with counter-demonstrators.
Just as it is when trolls spew multiple, largely content-free comments into a discussion thread, perhaps hoping to shut down the thread or at least make it unreadable. To conspire with others to do so is worse, but still not as bad as making the machinery of government party to the process, as the Bush administration has done. Still worse is to arrest or kill demonstrators to prevent their speech, but make no mistake: these efforts differ in their extent, not in their aim.
"I guess you all missed the part in the post that refers to government imposed permit policies and to the actions of the police ..."
From my few classes in writing from long ago I recall that you should close an essay with your primary point, not bury it in the middle. The first third of the post is about Myanmar, the last half focuses on the manual which addresses the (admittedly obnoxious) admin/party policies and suggests that operatives "ask for" the designation of protest zones. The designating may be of questionable constitutionality, but the asking is at most obnoxious. If the point was merely to convey the "full flavor" of Zick's posts, a pointer with minimal commentary would have sufficed. As it is, the commentary clearly diluted if not obscurred that point. I stand by my original comment. - Charles (II)
Mr. Field, I guess we just disagree. I think it's fine for any presidential administration to rally its supporters to stage demonstrations in support of its policies. I think it's fine for any administration to ask columnists (say, people like Sidney Blumenthal) to write columns attacking its opponents. I think it's fine for them to encourage grassroots groups (say, moveon.org) to criticize prosecutors or other government officials who are embarrassing the administration. I think all those sorts of activities are part of the marketplace of ideas.
Prof. Tamanaha, you said yourself that arresting people in critical t-shirts was not standard operating procedure. It was obviously the action of an overzealous low-level cop, not an administration strategy. So that is why no one is addressing that issue. But, for the record, it would be wholly inappropriate for an administration to arrest people who disagree with it for expressing their disagreement. Okay?
So, make no mistake, Bart and I posting here "differ only in their extent, not in their aim" to Myanmar government-sponsored murder? Well, at least you have the right to express such opinion.
My observations were general.
Others can assess the insights provided in the 8 out of 26 comments by one commenter and come to their own conclusions as to the purpose.
As I said, at least until our hosts shut of comments, at least you have the right to express such (general) opinions.
Excellent post, Brian. Bush's lecturing Myanmar about free speech was about as absurd as Sen. Larry Craig and his condemnation of Pres. Clinton's scandal vis-a-vis Monica Lewinsky several years ago, declaring him a "naughty, nasty, dirty boy."
I protested the traitor Jane Fonda at Boston College back in the day.
Post a Comment
No, Bart. You protested Jane Fonda, who never levied war against the United States nor adhered to its enemies. And now, you have falsely accused her of being a traitor.
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