Saturday, May 26, 2007
The Dangers of Being Hated
We are asked to consider providing advice to the new American president who will be sworn in on January 20, 2009. The Bush administration has pursued a war on terror for over five years. On the basis of its track record, what changes should now be considered?
There are instances when statments of the essence of justice, as the US is intended to mean and be it, inspire. This is an instance. A tender loveliness which is witness to the truly humane.
Though very young during those years, I recall "Ike". Then TVs were black-and-white, and "Ike" was a pasty white person with pasty white hair and pasty white, irisless eyes, like Little Orphan Annie.
He told everyone to worship in the church of their choice -- then played golf when he should have been in church.
I was 12 when JFK ran for president, and being from Massachusetts, and a Catholic (or so my mother believed), naturally supported him.
During the last six years, though, I've encountered an increasing number of quotes from "Ike," beyond that concerning the military-industrial complex, and I am impressed. Beyond impressed, trobuled that our country has lost its way, led astray by "Ike"'s party. When did winning matter before all else, without regard for means, become the rule for that party? When did it begin putting itself before Constitution and country? When did it begin to claim it, and the United States, are identical and inseparable -- and everyone else is anti-American?
I, for one, am beyond fed up with being threatened by the bullies -- the teorrirsts -- who occupy, and stain, the White House. Now it's down to Bush threatening reporter's children, via his cover story. When will our shared revulsion for the moral deparavity, the tyranny, Bush, et al., present as necessary for the defense of freedom be such that we no longer discuss its legal terms as a cordial academic legal exercise in theory and instead recognize our passive complicty and therefore act in accordance with our system of laws, and not of men, and do that the Constitution prescribed when the system is subverted by traitors?
How long shall we apologize to the world, and plead helplessness, before shame drives us to take approrpiate action, in keeping with the rule of law of which we boast?
Are you kidding me?! What about the "terrorists" you mentioned who, according to your definition, I guess occupied and stained the White House too? Eisenhower WON World War II by "terrorizing" Germany. President Kennedy authorized "terrorism" as well in Cuba and Vietnam. Of course, we know what President Johnson did with the latter. Don't even get me started on FDR and Truman fire-bombing Tokyo, and when that "terror" didn't work, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You were fine with DEMOCRATS "terrorizing" innocent civilians, right?
Finally, are you really serious about Bush pointing out to David Gregory that his own children are at risk from REAL terrorists is actually a "cover story" for the President of the United States issuing a veiled threat? You probably think Bush planted demolitions at the World Trade Center then too, right?
You were fine with DEMOCRATS "terrorizing" innocent civilians, right?
So your theory is that the more wrongs we commit, the more right we become?
Charles, thank you for sharing your boundless ignorance with us.
If we ever need to not know something, you'll be the first to get the call.
The mention of the Emperor Caligula is interesting. Caligula is said to have named his favorite horse as Consul to the Senate.
George W. Doofus's favorite horse's ass now presides over the Senate.
In the last six years, America has suffered a very grave series of reputation setbacks. America is now at the lowest point it has ever occupied in the world’s esteem...
Should we be concerned about this? In my mind the answer is clear. We are creating a progressively more dangerous world – more dangerous for everybody, but especially for Americans.
Not only is this allegation demonstrably false, but Mr. Horton is slandering his country in front of a foreign audience at a conference largely dedicated to slandering the US. The fact that Mr. Horton is slandering his country under the rubric of a speech bemoaning the damaged reputation of our country would be delicious irony if the act itself was not so reprehensible.
In reality, the world has become progressively safer for our civilians since we finally joined the war that al Qaeda had been waging against us for 8 years prior to 9/11. This conference opposes this war and instead proposes to again treat al Qaeda as a simple civilian criminal justice matter - the approach which brought us 9/11 and several attacks prior to that date.
At some point, a commentator on Fox News will say “Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.” The commentator will probably present this as a saying of Niccolò Machiavelli, Florence’s great political theorist... we should recall that this statement is not Machiavelli’s – it comes from the Emperor Caligula, a man who has secured his reputation in the United States through pornographic movies. Hardly a figure worthy of being emulated by the leader of a modern democratic state, much less a Family Values Republican.
Comparing his country to Caligula's Rome based on a quotation, which he attributes in a fantasy alternatively to a Fox commentator and Mr. Bush, is Mr. Horton's second grotesque slander.
This attitude of Machiavelli’s is not so far from that of America’s Founding Fathers. In the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote of a “decent respect to the opinions of mankind"...
This is the same Thomas Jefferson which sent the Navy and Marines into the Barbary States to war on and defeat the states which sponsored the naval terrorism of his day. While Jefferson is arguably the antithesis of Caligula, his policies dealing with the Barbary Pirates are very reminiscent of the current policies of the United States dealing with al Qaeda and its allies - which Mr. Horton and many of the fellow participants in the conference oppose.
These developments are the foreseeable consequence of the Bush administration’s policies. What is the antidote to them? I see in our recent past an excellent model which very effectively addresses these issues. The model I look to is Dwight David Eisenhower’s...Eisenhower said “Though force can protect in emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration, and cooperation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace.” He was committed to caution in wielding our nation’s great military power, and careful deliberation and hesitancy before intervening with violence in the affairs of other countries.
When he was President, Eisenhower was blessed with a time where no foreign militaries were attacking the United States. However, when Eisenhower was the Allied Commander in Europe, he had no trouble waging a total war against the Nazis which included killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in the course of liberating the same nations whom now disapprove of us liberating another 50 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq.
And the turn away from justice has been the essential failing of American foreign policy in the first years of this century...In a word, it is normalcy – do we treat our enemies the same way we would treat another person accused of the same wrongdoing? Are we going to mete out a different flavor of justice to people from across the world who have brown skin and practice Islam than the flavor of justice we ordinarily dispense?...
The policies developed by the current administration bear both badges of injustice – namely special rules crafted for a particular group, and an historically unprecedented level of politicization of prosecutions, which has now culminated in a major, and – to those who followed the management of legal maneuvering in the war on terror – unsurprising scandal.
The claim that that the United States is treating al Qaeda and Taliban unlawful combatants as unlawful combatants because we are racist and intolerant of Islam is Mr. Horton's third gross slander in this speech. As we have previously discussed in this forum, Lincoln ordered that captured Confederate unlawful enemy combatants - all of whom were white - be summarily executed with none of the due process rights which the DTA and the MCA extend to "brown Islamic" al Qeada unlawful combatants.
I do not reject the war paradigm. I reject the notion that we have to choose between the war paradigm and the criminal-justice paradigm. In fact we must follow both – that is, there are circumstances plainly governed by the war paradigm – the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, for instance; and there are situations which plainly are covered by the criminal justice paradigm...
Consequently what is a nonstarter: Guantánamo, by which I mean the series of practices now condemned around the world and recently described by Spain’s Supreme Court as a “legal black hole” and a “lawless place.”
Huh? Mr. Horton recognizes that Iraq and Afghanistan fall into the category of war and then argues that we should treat the enemy prisoners taken in those wars and held in Gitmo as civilian criminal justice suspects.
The United States has never treated the detention of captured enemy combatants for the duration of a war as a criminal justice matter.
The fact that Mr. Horton argues for treating wartime enemy captures at Gitmo as civilian criminal suspects belies his claim that he does not reject the war paradigm.
The major issue remains highly coercive interrogation techniques. Does it not bear testimony to the malicious resilience of this Administration that today, three years after the disclosure of the Abu Ghraib scandal, this remains the case?
The comparison of the CIA's coercive interrogation techniques with the criminal sexual abuse perpetrated by members of an Army reserve unit at Abu Ghraib is Mr. Horton's fourth gross slander of the United States. The CIA's coercive interrogation techniques do not include any of the sexual abuse which went on in Abu Ghraib and, therefore, could not have been the source of the crimes perpetrated there.
This approach gains us the justified contempt of the world and of our oldest allies. Many of them now turn away from cooperation with us in the fight against terrorism – and that is a victory for the terrorists and a serious weakening of a strength we have come to depend upon.
Really? Name one instance where our allies have refused to cooperate with the US in the fight against terrorism because of our low poll approval ratings in their countries? Indeed, our allies are often seeking our cooperation to deal with the terrorism in their countries, a threat which largely does not exist in our country.
You seem confused. Mr. Horton is not talking about the United States. For instance, I am an American, and I do not run Guantanamo. Neither do the bulk of Americans.
He is talking about the Bush administration. If you want to write "slander the Bush Administration", then we can have a discussion. But the Bush Administration is not "the United States". Indeed, the fundamental problem with you is that you read the principal "La etat, cest moi" into American law, when it appears nowhere in our Constitution or our traditions.
Slandering the country in order to score partisan political points does not make the slander any less egregious. Arguably, such a shallow motive would make the slander worse.
DePalma v. Horton is not even a fair fight; someone tie Horton's hands behind his back, okay?
Not only is this allegation demonstrably false
"Demonstrably"? Demonstrate, then.
a conference largely dedicated to slandering the US
And BDP knows this how?
In reality, the world has become progressively safer for our civilians
How safe were we on 9/10/2001?
Comparing his country to Caligula's Rome based on a quotation
Confidential to Bart: WE CAN READ. The comparison was of Caligula to Bush; that does not imply a comparison of America to Rome (as if that would be shocking, but regardless). I have to assume that you *can't* read, b/c it would be pointlessly stupid for you to lie.
he had no trouble waging a total war against the Nazis which included killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians
I guess BDP cannot grasp the notion that Eisenhower might have learned something from his experience other than "let's do that again!" (And Eisenhower did a great deal to rein in Bomber Command, which resisted him tooth & nail.)
The claim that that the United States is treating al Qaeda and Taliban unlawful combatants as unlawful combatants because we are racist and intolerant of Islam is Mr. Horton's third gross slander in this speech.
The CIA's coercive interrogation techniques do not include any of the sexual abuse which went on in Abu Ghraib and, therefore, could not have been the source of the crimes perpetrated there.
Since the secret memo detailing the permissible techniques *remains* secret, BDP's knowledge is remarkable. We know of sexual abuse at Gitmo (on a smaller scale), and we know that Gitmo techniques migrated and morphed in the wake of MAJGEN Miller.
Name one instance where our allies have refused to cooperate with the US in the fight against terrorism because of our low poll approval ratings in their countries?
Spain? Other ex-members of the Coalition of the Willing?
One could further fisk BDP's rant, but of course I'm not responding for his benefit -- I just don't want anyone unacclimated to his distortions to come away from this thread thinking he's on to something. (Hint: anytime BDP says something's been resolved in other thread's, he's right -- resolved *against* his position.)
The comparison was of Caligula to Bush
If Bush = Caligula, then I guess AGAG = Caligula's horse.
And as John Randolph of Roanoake said, "Never were abilities so much below mediocrity so well rewarded, no not when Caligula’s horse was made consul."
Nobody commits so ugly a crime against country than to mindlessly praise its every misstep and to deny existence of all wrongdoing. No more foul a traitor can be found in its borders, nor so deceptive an agent of the weakening of its strengths.
Bitswapper echoes a Schopenhauer quote that Horton himself posted a while back:
The cheapest form of pride by contrast is national pride. For it betrays in the person imprisoned by it an absence of the individual qualities of which he could be proud, in favor of those he is prepared to share with so many millions. A person endowed with valuable personal merits would rather understand the defects of his own nation, and keep them constantly and clearly before his own eyes. But that poor wretch who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, will always seize upon the crudest basis for pride, the nation to which he belongs. In so doing he commits himself to defend all the failings and foolishness which characterize it with his every word and deed.
—- Arthur Schopenhauer, Aphorismen zur Lebensweisheit, ch iv in Schopenhauers Sämmtliche Werke in fünf Bänden, vol. 4, p. 242 (S.H. transl.)
It is more sadness than hate very often (at lest in my case). "Children of Abraham" was a term a friend from Nigeria once used. It is not only a problem HOW the US fight, it is also a problem WHAT they fight for. Somalia is a nice example. Ok, I am starting to hate "asswholes" in that case too and I would include Obama in such a case as well.Post a Comment