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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Intended to be hurtful
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Friday, March 16, 2007
Intended to be hurtful
Andrew Koppelman
I promised in my previous post to say something about the hurt to gay people of the discrimination that would be permitted if, as I advocate, religious objectors are exempted from laws banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Comments:
"He presumes that it is never appropriate, in civil society, for someone to say things that he knows to be hurtful to others. But this conclusion is morally and politically loaded. It presumes that none of us need to hear things that will hurt us.
I think you're missing a distinction here: civil discourse in a public forum v. hurtful/religious speech in a workplace. A workplace is not the *same* as public forum for the purpose of *free speech* (at least as far as I under stand it. It would be fine for this man to post these quotes allover his own home, in some other Public venue (like a public bulletin board open to ALL postings)...but to do this in the workplace is the distinction here.
Just to put things into the right context, a little paraphrase:
It is possible for blacks and southern white States-Rights people to live together, each following their own deepest allegiances. But the coexistence that this entails will necessarily be painful for both. The only way to achieve comfort for either would be to make the other disappear or pretend to disappear. Because that is not appropriate, there is no good way to prevent this kind of hurt. Yeah, that's the ticket. "Can't we all just get alooooonnngggg...?" No, Prof. Koppelman: There should be no religious exemption for bigotry of any kind. If we think that bigotry is unacceptable in society and pass laws against any actions motivated by such that are in our power to do, they should apply to all, for all types of bigotry, no exceptions. Cheers,
The comparison between gay people and religious people here is facile, and the "closet" Peterson might have been forced into bears little relation to the one gays have experienced. Whatever privileges closeted gays have experienced, they have nothing analogous to the societal approval religious homophobes continue to enjoy.
Prof. Koppelman [from the post]:
It is a disputed question whether the specific hurtful things that Peterson had to say were sound enough to be worth hearing. This is beside the point. HP has every right to make sure its employees work together in harmony, and if that means restricting certain activities not related to work within the workplace, there should be no problem. That is what they did. Despite Peterson's complaints of religious discrimination, their policy ban had nothing to do with that. If they thought that "reasoned discussion of general moral issues" wasn't sufficiently bothersome to the work environment, or perhaps even to be encouraged, they could do that. But to ban his screaming 144 pt. type missives to his co-workers is harldy a discussion, and I can't believe you think it even bears a trace of reasonableness. Hewlett-Packard had enormous leverage over Peterson. It is not a light thing to fire someone from a job he has held for 20 years. This is the kind of sanction that is likely to drive dissenters into the closet. HP never told him to change his mind. They just told him to pipe down and STFU. Your "closet" analogy is very offensive, BTW. Cheers,
Prof. Koppelman:
It is a disputed question whether the specific hurtful things that Peterson had to say were sound enough to be worth hearing. ... Gay people have been for a long time, and sometimes still are, subjected to just this kind of silencing. I think you are completely misconstruing the nature of homophobia, particularly historically, since gays weren't "silenced". That wasn't the punishment they endured if they were found (or even thought) to be gay. Really. Think about it for a second if you need. Cheers,
I must confess some confusion on the part of this entry, which simultaneously says:
"Not all antigay views, however, deny the personhood and equal citizenship of gay people. Certainly Peterson’s views did not do that. There is a serious discussion to be had here about sexuality and morality. Peterson’s views do not place him beyond the pale of civilized discussion." But it quotes the Old Testament verse posted conspicuously by Peterson: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be put upon them." If slaughtering those engaging in homosexual conduct is not advocacy of something that would deny their personhood and equal citizenship, then what, if anything, would work such a denial? It seems impossible to me that this Peterson is capable, as the entry claims, that his "views do not place him beyond the pale of civilized discussion", when he is quoting scripture prescribing the murder of homosexuals. And not, mind you, in the next world, but in this one.
There is a serious discussion to be had here about sexuality and morality.
I'm not at all sure what "serious discussion" you have in mind, but ordinarily the invocation of God's law shuts off discussion instead of encouraging it. And that seems to have been Peterson's point. In addition, I find it odd to describe Peterson as having been fired based upon his religious beliefs. He was fired because he challenged company policy in a very public way in the workplace.
I share Cosim John Sayid's comments. Honestly, the statement referenced there is ridiculous. Likewise, there are numerous things that can very well be deemed "racism" and not violating the "equal citizenship" test, surely not in a crystal clear matter.
Per Mark Field, seems like religious acts are involved here. At the workplace, as others note, they can be and should be reasonably limited when they run counter to workplace needs. This sort of thing is naive and not very productive. I'm sorry.
Andrew, you commit the fallacy of slippery slope. The Judge specifically stated "in the workplace," but you slide into "all situations."
In every workplace of mine, no one is permitted any form of malignment of another employee unless it is specifically work-related. In that narrow context, the malignment is to be brought to a supervisor's or a manager's attention, not addressed between the respective employees. The workplace is no one individual's soapbox for whatever screed is today's fashion. Conversations "on employee's time" is not any of my business, and is not under a manager's perogative, but any conversation within the workplace that diminishes team spirit and mutual regard to succeed mutually and cooperatively in our respective competences, is! Do not confuse the open dialogue in academia (as an estimable objective) with the same in the workplace. Academia is not commerce, industry, or trade. When the latter are involved, speech must serve the commercial interests of the employer, and any behavior, including speech, that maligns another employee is expressly prohibited. What is said and done "after hours" is another matter. My employees understood the difference, and why it was important. Re-read your comments, and re-introduce "within the workplace" and see if you come to the same conclusion?
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