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Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Sleeping Through a Revolution
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Sunday, January 14, 2007
Sleeping Through a Revolution
Scott Horton
"I am sure that most of you have read that arresting little story from the pen of Washington Irving, entitled 'Rip Van Winkle.' The one thing that we usually remember about the story is that Rip Van Winkle slept twenty years. But there is another point... that is almost completely overlooked. It was the sign in the end, from which Rip went up in to the mountain for his long sleep. When Rip Van Winkle went up into the mountain, the sign has a picture of King George III of England. When he came down twenty years later, the sign had a picture of George Washington, the first president of the United States... The most striking thing about the story of Rip Van Winkle is not merely that Rip slept twenty years, but that he slept through a revolution...
Comments:
Dr. King's primary contribution was the use of non violent civil disobedience to embarrass the citizenry of the United States into outlawing state and private racial discrimination in favor of European Americans and against African Americans. However, like Ghandi, King was successful in this endeavor because he was attempting to persuade a liberal democracy.
Unfortunately, totalitarian governments rarely suffer civil disobedience seeking political change. If Ghandi and King had tried their approach in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Empire, the current China and Vietnam, Taliban Afghanistan, Baathist Iraq, their fate would have been torture followed by a trip to the gulag or, more likely, a quick and nasty execution. Soviet dissidents may have been inspired by King, but they never successfully followed his lead. Nazi Europe, the Soviet Empire, Taliban Afghanistan and Baathist Iraq were brought down and their peoples liberated by outside force, not civil disobedience. Indeed, we paid for our own freedom in blood though a war of revolution. Dr. King, like Ghandi, is indeed an inspiration for us on many levels. However, to achieve his dream of human liberty, sometimes you must turn to the rough men who are willing to fight for that freedom.
Bart: sometimes you must turn to the rough men who are willing to fight for that freedom.
Your point is not entirely lost on, well, me at least, and it puts you in some strange company, like Saul Alinsky, who argues, in his "Rules for Radicals", that Gandhi's choice of non-violence may have been at least partly a matter of expedience based on the realities of the populace he was trying to mobilize. Be that as it may, it's pretty mean-spirited of you to preach strength-of-arms on this thread, as if you can't bear to let prayers, plans and dreams of peace have even this much safe harbor. There are "rough men" aplenty, so certain of their status as "the good guys", so willing to kill on command. There are far, far too few willing to endure un-glamorously for peace. Would it kill you to support those few? Or even simply let them speak rather than roughly shouting them down?
Bart writes:"Nazi Europe, the Soviet Empire, Taliban Afghanistan and Baathist Iraq were brought down and their peoples liberated by outside force, not civil disobedience."
Nazi Germany, Taliban Afghanistan , & Baathist Iraq were clearly brought down by outside force, but not the Soviet Union. That was actually a very different situation. Nobody invaded the Soviet Union, and the 'outside force' applied was not military in its implementation. Your response seems consistent with the attitude that peace is nice, but war is real. Ultimately war is about causing problems, peace is about solving them. Peace has more power than war, and all life has equal value. If not, the human condition itself is a fraud, and all wrongs against humanity are justifiable and acceptable.
"Bart" DePalma:
Unfortunately, totalitarian governments rarely suffer civil disobedience seeking political change. If Ghandi and King had tried their approach in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Empire, the current China and Vietnam, Taliban Afghanistan, Baathist Iraq, their fate would have been torture followed by a trip to the gulag or, more likely, a quick and nasty execution. Cf. Tainanmen Square. FWIW, Gandhi practised his non-violence against a regime and in a millieu of considerable violence, imprisonment, and arguably excesses and "torture" (as did MLKII; lynchings, dogs, jail, murders, etc.) "Bart"'s 'black and white' worldview here is severely distorted. The fact that Gandhi and MLKII were advocates of non-violence would hardly be noteworthy except for the circumstances under which they preached this doctrine. Had everything been roses, no one would have made anything of them an dthei rmovement, nor would such have even been necessary. Cheers,
JT Davis said...
"Rough men!" Bart! You are so butch! Now you are descending to homosexual smack? Did George Orwell a creature of the political left (an anti-totalitarian democratic socialist)ever say: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf?" Not exactly. But he did make comments that were along similar lines. If he did not make this statement, he probably wishes he did. In any case, the statement is not important because George Orwell may have said it. Rather, it is important because it is true. bits: Nazi Germany, Taliban Afghanistan , & Baathist Iraq were clearly brought down by outside force, but not the Soviet Union. That was actually a very different situation. Nobody invaded the Soviet Union, and the 'outside force' applied was not military in its implementation. Thank you. I meant to point that out as well. Part and parcel of De Palma's fairy tale of Reaganesque revisionism and myth making. As I have previously posted in detail, force has more dimensions than merely the military. However, the application of military force against the Red Army in Afghanistan and against Soviet satellites was a critical part of the toppling of the Soviet Empire. Gerald Ford (ever the true conservative and Republican) held his tongue, not wanting to speak ill of the dead (or living dead) until he had joined them: Ford said Reagan, who challenged him unsuccessfully for the GOP nomination in 1976, was "a great spokesman for attractive political objectives" such as a balanced budget and defeating communism, "but when it came to implementation, his record never matched his words." Mr. Ford never forgave Reagan for challenging and nearly beating him in 1976. Ford blamed his loss to Carter on Reagan supporters for staying home. As for the comment above, I find it humorous that the President who claimed that Eastern Europe was not under Soviet control is taking shots at the man who toppled the Soviets. Reagan was "probably the least well-informed on the details of running the government of any president I knew," Ford said. In a separate interview, he said Reagan "was just a poor manager, and you can't be president and do a good job unless you manage." Yup, Reagan sure did a poor job as President. Jerry, how did that Wip Inflation Now button campaign work for you? Was inflation impressed? Under the 1975 Helsinki accords signed by Ford, the United States recognized borders in Soviet-dominated Eastern Europe in exchange for the Soviets' pledge to respect basic human rights. Ford genuinely thought that recognizing the enslavement of Eastern Europe by the Soviets helped win the Cold War? I guess that is why the now free Eastern Europeans are naming things after Reagan and not Ford. Jerry, what you did is known as appeasement.
Bart writes:"As I have previously posted in detail, force has more dimensions than merely the military. However, the application of military force against the Red Army in Afghanistan and against Soviet satellites was a critical part of the toppling of the Soviet Empire."
Rather than simply imply how right you believe you've been in the past, why not just link to those earlier posts? And yes, in fact the toppling of the Soviet Union was very different qualitatively than Nazi Germany, Taliban Afghanistan, and Baathist Iraq. Unless, of course, you can cite the date the soviet union was invaded and occupied.
@Bart: First you have the incredibly bad taste to argue strength of arms in the context of Mr. Horton's post and the memory of Dr. King's work. Then you prove yourself unable to resist the temptation of arguing with your detractors. But I note which of your detractors you argue with. My point still stands: Your initial comments in this context are beneath the dignity with which I would very much like to credit you. Are you so much the grunt that you are unable to view the world in any other terms? Are you immune to prayers for peace? Is this Christianity?
"Bart" DePalma:
Yup, Reagan sure did a poor job as President. Jerry, how did that Wip Inflation Now button campaign work for you? Was inflation impressed? "Bart" misspelled "Terra-ism".... Cheers,
"Bart" DePalma:
Ford genuinely thought that recognizing the enslavement of Eastern Europe by the Soviets helped win the Cold War? I guess that is why the now free Eastern Europeans are naming things after Reagan and not Ford. Jerry, what you did is known as appeasement.... I, OTOH, am truly amased at the number of statues of Dubya going up all round Iraq. Why, there's enough of them to hang each and every Saddam accomplice from, one per outstreched hand.... Cheers,
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