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Friday, September 22, 2006
Three of the Most Significant Problems with the "Compromise"
Marty Lederman
Here's the Agreement Upon Common Article 3. And here's the Agreements on Classified Information, Self Incrimination and Coercion, and Hearsay, in military commission trials. Here's the bill as introduced.
Comments:
All of this can't be good, but it seems like something obvious is being missed: What about extraordinary renditioning?
the architects of these "standards" ought to be FORCED to create "OK" and "NOT OK" lists, down to specific acts and techniques... that is the ONLY way anyone will ever be held accountable... this intentionally vague language is worthless for preventing torture...
(other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions)
Yeah. As I suspected. They can't beat a confession out of the suspect, but if they "have to use force" to "ensure prisoner compliance", as a "lawful sanction", well... they just told the detainee to stand for 24 hours; the beatings were because the detainee wouldn't follow orders, not part of the interrogation.
Isn't this all just sashaying around the question of exactly how much torture is indeed "torture"?
You know, I don't like peeking in other people's bedrooms, and I really don't want to know exactly how much inhumane treatment would "shock [their] conscience". I think that should be legally irrelevant on any free but civilised society. Cheers,
Foreclosing a private right of action is perfectly legitimite. Many, many laws that are designed to protect people do not allow for a private right of action by those people. The exclusive remedy for "protection" is congressional review or independent suit by an independent counsel of the executive branch or regulatory agency. This is not new at all. Furthermore, the Geneva Conventions do not require it, nor does the US Constitution. Allowing private lawsuits against the Government is strictly the privilege of Congress, which appropriately declined to allow al-Qaeda to sue the Government. This is entirely an appropriate policy choice by the Congress.
First of all,
All the stuff Rosa Brooks mentioned ALREADY has happened to our gusya nd has been happening for years. Ask John McCain what happened to him and his buddies in Nam. WHat do you thin khappened to the hostages in Lebanon and the US Embassy in Tehran. To US prisoners of the Chinese and NoKors in Korea. To the guys captured during the Gulf War. The Geneva Conventions have NEVER protected out guys in the past an dit's foolish to think the ywill in the future. Further, all those things are things we ALREADY do to our own guys during training exercises. Please to think that cold rooms, standing up, slapping and the like is torture is absurd. Torture is when the Egyptians hook you up to the rack and stick cattle prods on your testicles. It's when drops sulfuric acid on you,. It's what they do in Jordan, Syria, China, etc... And if we did it I'd be perfectly fine with it. Here's one question liberals never answer. How do YOU propose to get information. And based on the Brian Ross ABC report and other rep[orts, the current tactics HAVE worked. KSM spilled the beans. Abu Zubaydah and BinAlshibh and others gave it up. Not everything they said turned out, but a lot of it did and we have repaed the benfits and saved lives. Let's say you've captured KSM. You know he knows things. What do YOU do? Do you just ask him nicely and if se says no, then that's it. You can just ask him his name, his age and his serial number? You have to give him a lawyer? WHat is the liberal startegy for interrogation and how will it work?
Here's how Rosa Brooks starkly makes the point:
Take any of the "alternative" methods that Bush wants to use on U.S. detainees and imagine someone using those methods on your son or daughter. If the bad guys captured your son and tossed him, naked, into a cell kept at a temperature just slightly higher than an average refrigerator, then repeatedly doused him with ice water to induce hypothermia, would that be OK? What if they shackled him to a wall for days so he couldn't sit or lie down without hanging his whole body weight on his arms? What if they threatened to rape and kill his wife, or pretended they were burying him alive? What if they did all these things by turns? Would you have any problem deciding that these methods are cruel? To start, many of the techniques referred to above are not legal under the compromise definitions of grave violations of the Geneva Conventions. Let us stick to the subject at hand without red herrings muddying up the discussion. Instead, let use as an example the most severe coercive interrogation technique approved by the government - water boarding. The definition of torture being adopted in this proposed legislation is nearly identical to the amended definition of torture to which the US agreed to in the Torture Convention - the intentional infliction of severe pain. Although this has been the subject of debate, I cannot see how the panic inflicted by water boarding is the equivalent of severe pain. Therefore, despite Senator McCain's protestations to the contrary, let us assume that water boarding does not fit under the proposed definition of torture under this agreement. Now, let us reframe the question in context. Unless your son or daughter is a foreign all Qaeda terrorist in the business of murdering our citizens, then that comparison is inapposite. Different persons have different rights. We grant our citizens, not foreign enemy combatants, constitutional rights. Historically, enemy combatants fighting in civilian clothing were summarily executed on the battlefield. There were never trials. Due process consisted of a battlefield determination that the subject was in fact an enemy combatant rather than a civilian. With all of this in mind, I would pose the following question to American voters: The interrogation technique of water boarding simulates the sensation of drowning and causes severe panic in the people subject to this technique. However, it has also been used successfully to force al Qaeda leaders like Khalid Sheik Muhammad to disclose the identity or several other al Qaeda leaders and to disclose several future plots to commit the mass murder of American citizens. Should Congress ban the technique of water boarding as too cruel to be used to interrogate captured al Qaeda detainees captured in the future? Do you want to guess what percentage of voters would answer "yes" to that question? The definition of torture is largely in the mind of the beholder and, in the end, is a policy decision to be made by our elected representatives. After a review of the rules laid out in this compromise, I can say with confidence that these interrogation limits are far more restrictive than those the average American would permit.
Foreclosing a private right of action is perfectly legitimite. Many, many laws that are designed to protect people do not allow for a private right of action by those people. The exclusive remedy for "protection" is congressional review or independent suit by an independent counsel of the executive branch or regulatory agency. This is not new at all. Furthermore, the Geneva Conventions do not require it, nor does the US Constitution.
The UN Convention Against Torture, signed by President Reagan, does require that signatories permit a private right of action: "Each State Party shall ensure that any individual who alleges he has been subjected to torture in any territory under its jurisdiction has the right to complain to, and to have his case promptly and impartially examined by, its competent authorities. Steps shall be taken to ensure that the complainant and witnesses are protected against all ill-treatment or intimidation as a consequence of his complaint or any evidence given. Each State Party shall ensure in its legal system that the victim of any act of torture obtains redress and has an enforceable right to fair and adequate compensation, including the means for as full rehabilitation as possible. In the event of the death of the victim as a result of an act of torture, his dependents shall be entitled to compensation." Allowing private lawsuits against the Government is strictly the privilege of Congress, which appropriately declined to allow al-Qaeda to sue the Government. This is an uncommonly silly statement. Nobody has suggested that "Al Qaeda" has any right of action. Victims of torture, on the other hand, SHOULD have such a right. In light of your post, you might want to change your posting name to something more appropriate. I suggest "Madame Dufarge".
Where does the section 8 (c), prohibition against cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, fit in this? It is not part of the 8(b) definitions and is broader. Also, as a stand alone Federal law, it would not appear to be subject to the jurisdictional limits of Section 7. What am I missing, other than the lack of an enforcement mechanism?
JoshR:
There may be consensus (see here and here) that while waterboarding is not torture, it is Cruel or Inhuman Treatment that would be prohibited when this compromise amends the War Crimes Act. I am not seeing how. The proposed definitions for "torture" and "cruel and inhuman treatment" are nearly identical: (A) TORTURE.—The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation, coercion, or any reason based on discrimination of any kind. (B) CRUEL OR INHUMAN TREATMENT.—The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act intended to inflict severe or serious physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions), including serious physical abuse, upon another within his custody or control.
Although this law doesn't apply to domestic prisoners (say, somebody arrested for some sort of felony charge), it gives me the shivers to think about what it will mean in terms of an acceptable bar for treatment of prisoners here in the states.
After all, if none of this is cruel, inhumane, or unusual, what's to prevent this from eroding our own domestic, constitutionally provided-for protections? since it's just a matter of interpretation by the president?
if someone did to my son or daughter what ms parks suggests, then i would shoot them in the head. but i don't suppose that's legal under the geneva convention, is it?
but if my son or daughter were a soldier, and i would expect them to be shot in the head, then it would be a welcome relief to know that they suffered, rather than died.
If you ask any normal person if they would want their son to live in a room 23 hours a day and only get 1 hour for exercise, they would call that cruel; however that is how we treat tens of thousands of prisoners in our domestic prisons, yet no one goes berserk about torture.
Vegetarians suffer tremendous mental anguish in our prisons because there is no such thing as a vegetarian diet available. I think you ask the wrong question. The question is, "your son or daughter is being held captive by Muslims who want to behead them and we think Hassan knows where they are being kept. What should we do to Hassan to get him to talk?" I'm afraid the same parents would have an entirely different, stark response to your question of what is proper torture. In fact, I have no doubt that they would say drilling a hole in Hassan's eye does not seem unduly cruel. Non?
Two meta-points, if you will:
1. I do not see, from a jurisdictional standpoint, how any "adjustment" of torture standards by Congress can stand up under international law, the laws of war or the Constitutional law. It is patently obvious the adjustments made in the new law are ad hoc and arbitrary and make no effort to show how they comport with the extensive web of existing law and precedent on this topic. Saying 2+2=5 does not make it so; and this is essentially what Congress has tried to do. For that reason, I think the entire thread of discussion that parses the new law is superfluous, dilatory and a waste of everyone's time. If I'm way wrong on this, please correct me. 2. The U.S. Supreme Court, when it reviews this new law for constitutionality, is going to focus on the massive and unprecedented jurisdictional issues this raises, not the parsing of what is torture and what is not. The jurisdictional and supremacy issues this law raises are 1,000 times more problematic than the torture vs. non-torture language. That's just salted peanuts for the rubes. The only real and important question here is under what authority can Congress legalize torture at all, regardless of how they define it. Not a single piece of law allows torture, period, not international law, the laws of war or the Constitution. The Administration's argument from day one has been that torture is allowed solely because "unlawful enemy combatants" fall outside any legal jurisdiction on the planet and therefore anything can be done to them. Pretty slim reed to hang a 1,000 pound anchor on.
The new law fails on the fundamental weakness of proving too much. The DOJ did this on the NSA spying case and Judge Anna Taylor nailed them on this issue. Taking their argument on its face, she found the DOJ saying the Executive is unbound by any law and found the argument severely wanting for authority. The torture law is based on the same fundamental flaw because it is based on exactly the same flawed reasoning and was probly cooked up by the same people.
The administration can cite no authority on the planet which deems human torture acceptable. All authorities which exist, in whatever jurisdiction one names, expressly and forcefully state the opposite. The only argument, therefore, is that none of these authorities "apply" in this specific set of circumstances. This is such an obvious shill. No legal principle exists to simply "create" a right to torture. The premise must be founded upon something, not a negative argument that it can arise solely because its specifics fall outside all known categories of "something." But apparently, thus far, this ridiculous argument is having its intended dilatory effect, based on material written here and elsewhere. It's stupid to argue the antecedents and conclusions if the premise itself has no foundation. In this case the premise has no foundation and the Administration already knows it. They are just making this garbage up off the top of their head to justify what they have already done. That turns the entire theory of law and sequence of logical analysis on its head. These guys have arrived at pre-determined conclusion and are now offering you a conceptual premise which magically supports it. What a surprise ! What a coincidence !
Although this law doesn't apply to domestic prisoners (say, somebody arrested for some sort of felony charge), it gives me the shivers to think about what it will mean in terms of an acceptable bar for treatment of prisoners here in the states.
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