Balkinization: The Senate Vote

It's good to know there's a few sensable Dems out there.

In any event, I repeat my unanswered question:

What interrogation procedures are ok with you? All we see is you criticizingthe administration but you never offer an alternative set of tactics. Lets assume that KSM was captured or lets say the US captures Zawahiri or some other AQ big shot.

How would YOU interrogate him? What tactics would be acceptable to you? Lay out how it would go.

Let's say he says, "I'm not telling you anything and I'm waiting for my lawyer". Is that the end of it? Should we just say ok?

I have yet to see one liberal explain how terrorists should be interrogated and how we should get information from them. How would you do it? What's acceptable to you? And if he says "I'm not telling you anything" after you've played by CA3 rules and Geneva rules, then what?

Please, enough criticizing Bush. How would you go about it?

I eagerly await your answer

# posted by

SarahWeddington : 7:32 PM

Snowe apparently had a death in the family, as hasn't voted in the last two days. Maybe you were mistaken that you saw her?

# posted by

Stealth : 8:12 PM

Here is how you interrogate without needing this bill. Google also Koubi and Scharff, star interrogators for Israel and the Luftwaffe, respectively. Both are famed for their skills, yet neither for his violations of Geneva 3.

Odd, that.

# posted by

wcw : 8:27 PM

It's about payback, not interrogation.

I suppose one could actually think that it's wrong to torture American soldiers (or perhaps uniformed soldiers, or however you want to slice it), but okay to torture evil terrorists.

# posted by

Stealth : 8:55 PM

In all seriousness, I don't see how different treatment for terror suspects than for "regular" criminals can be justified. No, really.

As I understand it, wanting to subject terror suspects to "enhanced" techniques turns on 1) the desirability of the knowledge they (are assumed to) have, and 2) our willingness to treat terrorists more harshly than "regular" criminals, because we judge them to be more contemptible and less deserving of protections. The first justification is pragmatic, and the second, pseudo-moral. Neither seems workable to me. Rebuttals:

1) It seems to me that "regular" criminals will also sometimes have highly desirable information. Suppose a wacko kidnaps half a dozen young children and locks them up somewhere. They are at risk of starvation or suffocation. And yet the police are forbidden from using "enhanced" techniques. Why? It is extremely important here to extract the whereabouts of the children from the prisoner.

2) Allowing different treatment of a prisoner based on the crime they are suspected of having committed skips a basic protection of a civilized society: it bases decisions on the nature of the suspected crime without having firmly established that the prisoner is, in fact, guilty. To put this another way, even if you think that all terrorists should be tortured, you presumably think it's a great travesty to torture a non-terrorist. But giving yourself license to torture people that are merely suspected of terrorism is a terrific way to ensure you will end up torturing non-terrorists, sooner or later.

Bonus rebuttal to 2): it's not clear to me that terrorist acts are always morally worse than non-terrorist acts, unless we're going to start calling all kinds of criminals "terrorists". Serial rapists, sadistic killers, pedophiles, etc, all seem worthy of the same moral condemnation we reserve for terrorists.

So my first answer would be, whatever measures are permissible for “regular” criminals.

If you want a more aggressive suggestion, here's one that I don't actually support, but that seems at least defensible: torture warrants. If we're going to seriously advance a pragmatic justification for torture, that is, that the information we can reasonably hope to obtain justifies the repugnant act of torture, let's put safeguards in place. If the executive can demonstrate to the judiciary that it has reasonable grounds to believe that a prisoner is withholding critical information that could be extracted with torture, let the judiciary weigh the prisoner's rights against the value of the information, and issue a warrant for the harsh treatment when it is justified. But, I would still see no reason to distinguish between terror suspects and regular criminals.

# posted by

maiken : 9:12 PM

I know SW (ironic name) is a troll, but "liberal" I assume is in the classic sense, such as this being a "liberal democracy" and so forth, right? The conservatives etc. against this thing underline we aren't just talking about the Kennedys of the world.

The Dems voting "aye" have an electoral taint to them. Several are running in November. The rather liberal L. (NJ) is surprising, but maybe he's doing it out of loyalty to M. who is running neck to neck vs. Kean.

Rockefeller's vote underlines the gutless wonder nature of his role on the intel committee, an important one in this area. The fact Sen. Roberts went too far for even him underlines the depths.

Snowe also is running.

# posted by

Joe : 10:05 PM

Well, maiken, you are forthright, and wcw, though less forthrights, is fundamentally in accord, in agreeing with sarahweddington's hypothetical version of the absurd liberal answer: if Khalid Shaikh Mohammed asks for a lawyer, all interrogation must cease. Unfortunately, the American people don't agree with you, but maybe you can convince them at some future date.

Most of the comments here make little sense to me. wcw, why do you we assume that terrrorists are the kind of loser low-lifes who succumb to standard police interrogation techniques? pseudonymous in nc, consider this: if you were (wrongly but reasonably) believed by an American soldier to be an enemy combatant on the battlefield, would you be willing to be killed? I doubt it. Does that mean that American soldiers are not allowed to kill those they believe to be enemy combatants on the battlefield? Your argument proves too much.

# posted by

sean : 10:05 PM

btw maiken has a very good point.

As to warrants, that would "ruin it" by openly torturing. We don't do that, remember?

# posted by

Joe : 10:07 PM

It's good to know there's a few sensable Dems out there.

That's big of you, so I'll respond in kind with a tip to help you get taken more seriously next time: the word is sensible, not sensable.

But to give my answer your question: interrogation procedures that aren't cruel and that don't torture are OK with me.

And to answer your underlying question: there are numerous examples of how reasonable, patient questioning of even "hardened" suspects can lead to real results. Here are two accounts:
1) "What would Allah do?"
2) "Pray and tell"

...summarized by me here, if you prefer. I invite your focused, finite, and civil discussion there.

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It's good to know there's a few sensable Dems out there.

In any event, I repeat my unanswered question:

What interrogation procedures are ok with you? All we see is you criticizingthe administration but you never offer an alternative set of tactics. Lets assume that KSM was captured or lets say the US captures Zawahiri or some other AQ big shot.

How would YOU interrogate him? What tactics would be acceptable to you? Lay out how it would go.

Let's say he says, "I'm not telling you anything and I'm waiting for my lawyer". Is that the end of it? Should we just say ok?

I have yet to see one liberal explain how terrorists should be interrogated and how we should get information from them. How would you do it? What's acceptable to you? And if he says "I'm not telling you anything" after you've played by CA3 rules and Geneva rules, then what?

Please, enough criticizing Bush. How would you go about it?

I eagerly await your answer

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# posted by

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Sometimes I wonder if the Bush Admin thought up all this convoluted mess just so they could sound insane and piss off the Dems.

At the end of the debate, McCaine said that all US Officials must comply with Common Article III, even if they can't be punished for less than Grave Breaches. If this is true, wouldn't it allow field agents to legally disobey an order by refusing to employ certain procedures?

But anyway, the combination of harsh techniques and the loss of habeas corpus is the worst possible situation, not on constitutional or moral grounds, but simply on long term progress against terrorism.

If these men were true POWs, then harsh treatment wouldn't matter as much: when POWs return to their homeland after the battle is over, they are under the control of their government. In addition, it is obvious that POWs don't need habeas corpus to eventually get a hearing, and maybe released regardless of individual actions.

But terrorists, or those thought to be terrorists are a special case. They represent a Nation of One. Mistreatment during detention of could easily create a threat where one didn't exist. Detainees become dangerous due to the actions of our government. We can't simply set them loose since there is no government to take them.

So it is important to have either effective habeas rights, or strict policies for detainee treatment. Maybe the CIA will consider this and go easy on their captives until habeas has been tested in the Courts.

Btw, how long before the habeas stripping is challenged? Won't it start right away?

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Unknown : 3:34 AM

Well, maiken, you are forthright, and wcw, though less forthrights, is fundamentally in accord, in agreeing with sarahweddington's hypothetical version of the absurd liberal answer: if Khalid Shaikh Mohammed asks for a lawyer, all interrogation must cease. Unfortunately, the American people don't agree with you, but maybe you can convince them at some future date.

Most of the comments here make little sense to me. wcw, why do you we assume that terrrorists are the kind of loser low-lifes who succumb to standard police interrogation techniques? pseudonymous in nc, consider this: if you were (wrongly but reasonably) believed by an American soldier to be an enemy combatant on the battlefield, would you be willing to be killed? I doubt it. Does that mean that American soldiers are not allowed to kill those they believe to be enemy combatants on the battlefield? Your argument proves too much.

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# posted by

guntur : 8:09 AM

It's good to know there's a few sensable Dems out there.

In any event, I repeat my unanswered question:

What interrogation procedures are ok with you? All we see is you criticizingthe administration but you never offer an alternative set of tactics. Lets assume that KSM was captured or lets say the US captures Zawahiri or some other AQ big shot.

How would YOU interrogate him? What tactics would be acceptable to you? Lay out how it would go.

Let's say he says, "I'm not telling you anything and I'm waiting for my lawyer". Is that the end of it? Should we just say ok?

I have yet to see one liberal explain how terrorists should be interrogated and how we should get information from them. How would you do it? What's acceptable to you? And if he says "I'm not telling you anything" after you've played by CA3 rules and Geneva rules, then what?

Please, enough criticizing Bush. How would you go about it?

I eagerly await your answer

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