Balkinization   |
Balkinization
Balkinization Symposiums: A Continuing List                                                                E-mail: Jack Balkin: jackbalkin at yahoo.com Bruce Ackerman bruce.ackerman at yale.edu Ian Ayres ian.ayres at yale.edu Corey Brettschneider corey_brettschneider at brown.edu Mary Dudziak mary.l.dudziak at emory.edu Joey Fishkin joey.fishkin at gmail.com Heather Gerken heather.gerken at yale.edu Abbe Gluck abbe.gluck at yale.edu Mark Graber mgraber at law.umaryland.edu Stephen Griffin sgriffin at tulane.edu Jonathan Hafetz jonathan.hafetz at shu.edu Jeremy Kessler jkessler at law.columbia.edu Andrew Koppelman akoppelman at law.northwestern.edu Marty Lederman msl46 at law.georgetown.edu Sanford Levinson slevinson at law.utexas.edu David Luban david.luban at gmail.com Gerard Magliocca gmaglioc at iupui.edu Jason Mazzone mazzonej at illinois.edu Linda McClain lmcclain at bu.edu John Mikhail mikhail at law.georgetown.edu Frank Pasquale pasquale.frank at gmail.com Nate Persily npersily at gmail.com Michael Stokes Paulsen michaelstokespaulsen at gmail.com Deborah Pearlstein dpearlst at yu.edu Rick Pildes rick.pildes at nyu.edu David Pozen dpozen at law.columbia.edu Richard Primus raprimus at umich.edu K. Sabeel Rahmansabeel.rahman at brooklaw.edu Alice Ristroph alice.ristroph at shu.edu Neil Siegel siegel at law.duke.edu David Super david.super at law.georgetown.edu Brian Tamanaha btamanaha at wulaw.wustl.edu Nelson Tebbe nelson.tebbe at brooklaw.edu Mark Tushnet mtushnet at law.harvard.edu Adam Winkler winkler at ucla.edu Compendium of posts on Hobby Lobby and related cases The Anti-Torture Memos: Balkinization Posts on Torture, Interrogation, Detention, War Powers, and OLC The Anti-Torture Memos (arranged by topic) Recent Posts Heather Mac Donald's "Few Bad Apples" Theory of Abuse
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Sunday, January 23, 2005
Heather Mac Donald's "Few Bad Apples" Theory of Abuse
Marty Lederman
A couple of weeks ago, I posted a short critique of a recent article by Heather Mac Donald in the Manhattan Institute’s City Journal. Ms. Mac Donald has replied to my post on the City Journal website, and has asked that I link to her reply here, a request that I am happy to oblige.
Comments:
A typically thoughtful posting, Marty. A couple of things occur to me.
First, Dep't of the Army Field Manual 34-52, last updated during Bush I (1992), contained a thoughtful, practical, comprehensive treatment of the subject. When Pentagon leadership sets something aside and replaces it with chaos (how can you characterize it otherwise?), they deserve full blame for what follows. Certainly much more blame than the Graners and Englands. Second, if we think through the last sixty years, it seems every regime that mistreats detainees comes out with the same lame excuse: it's the responsibility of a few "rotten apples." That was the Nazi mantra during the Nuremberg tribunals; the response of the Argentine generals to exposes from the "Dirty War;" the British reply to mistreatment of Northern Irish detainees; the response of Bosnian Serbs and Rwandans during their recent prosecutions. So Rumsfeld's not exactly original here. But more importantly, the nation should view such claims with ultimate skepticism. Rumsfeld had affirmative duties. He failed in them. It seems to me clear that he has to be held to account, "rotten apples" or no.
From the perspective of a non-lawyer who can appreciate the logic of a legal argument but can't have a truly informed opinion on the technical nuances, it appears that the essential debate between Mr. Lederman and Ms. McDonald is who to believe: government spokespersons or critics such as Mr. Lederman. My interpretation of Mr. Lederman's position is encapsulated in "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" - presumably the intended target being the government. He interprets a government spokesperson's words, looks for logical consistency, and weighs context. Ms. McDonald's position seems to be that "look at what I say, not what I do" is an acceptable government response to suggestions of malfeasance. She takes a spokesperson's statements at face value, thinks anecdotes are definitive, but is suspicious of the motives of the naive and unrealistic groups such as "Human Rights Watch, the ICRC, Amnesty International, and the other self-professed guardians of humanitarianism" (eg, ACLU). At best, I'd lean toward the former position; given the current administration's track record on veracity, the leaning is replaced by a panic stricken leap.
As Mr. Lederman says, until more facts are known we won't really know the whole truth. While waiting for that day, I find it very helpful to have the virtual "money quote" I infer from Mr. Lederman's postings on this issue: given any relevant statement from a government spokesperson, listen carefully for who (CIA, military, FBI, etc.), can do/has done what ("torture", CID, etc.), to whom (citizen, enemy combatant, etc.), where (in or out of US legal jurisdiction, etc.). For that insight alone, I am grateful for his efforts.
Thanks so much for your yeoman's work. McDonald's original piece was much stronger (the strongest of the Apologies, IMO), because it asked the basic questions, as you pointed out. I don't think McDonald was being particularly dishonest in the original piece, which is what made it so compelling. She didn't so much argue, as provide anecdotes from interrogators. It was worth reading, definitely. We have such a dysfunctional way of ventilating issues that we extrapolate anecdotes routinely - no matter how ridiculous it is - because sometimes that's the only way another point of view gets communicated. If you can't be good, be carefull!
Anyway, thanks again for a great post. I'm so glad somebody is on this case.
A terrific debate; thoughtful in that increasingly rare way where two interlocutors actually engage on the issue, and can even acknowledge points of agreement.
That these exchanges are so rare is perhaps the single most disheartening aspect of American political discourse since 9/11, and made me wonder if we'd collectively forgotten how to argue. So thanks for that. One thing that seems to be missing in the debate generally is proportionality in interrogation techniques. If it's permissable, as MacDonald points out, for a New York ADA to offer not-so-subtle threats about life in Rikers' to get a getaway driver to snitch on his mates, how can it be impermissable to use similar technqiues (or more robust ones) against a suspect reasonably believed to possess information that could foil an imminent mass casualty attack on US soil?
Maybe I'm just being obtuse (and the discussion here is maintaining a very high level), but isn't the whole point of MacDonald's article moot when "a recently disclosed FBI memo indicates that 'marching orders to abandon traditional interrogation methods came from the defense secretary himself"? Two generals (Dunlevy & Miller) at Guantanamo, new documents have revealed, told the FBI that "the DoD has their marching orders from the SecDef" [Rumsfeld].
Joe Conason, "Torture Begins at the Top" http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/12/17/memo/ What, then, is the basis for the debate? If Rumsfeld writes a pretty (or less horrid) memo but orders underlings to torture in any case, the memo becomes meaningless, doesn't it? And here the generals say they got their orders from Rumsfeld himself.
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Books by Balkinization Bloggers Linda C. McClain and Aziza Ahmed, The Routledge Companion to Gender and COVID-19 (Routledge, 2024) David Pozen, The Constitution of the War on Drugs (Oxford University Press, 2024) Jack M. Balkin, Memory and Authority: The Uses of History in Constitutional Interpretation (Yale University Press, 2024) Mark A. Graber, Punish Treason, Reward Loyalty: The Forgotten Goals of Constitutional Reform after the Civil War (University of Kansas Press, 2023) Jack M. Balkin, What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Most Controversial Decision - Revised Edition (NYU Press, 2023) Andrew Koppelman, Burning Down the House: How Libertarian Philosophy Was Corrupted by Delusion and Greed (St. Martin’s Press, 2022) Gerard N. Magliocca, Washington's Heir: The Life of Justice Bushrod Washington (Oxford University Press, 2022) Joseph Fishkin and William E. Forbath, The Anti-Oligarchy Constitution: Reconstructing the Economic Foundations of American Democracy (Harvard University Press, 2022) Mark Tushnet and Bojan Bugaric, Power to the People: Constitutionalism in the Age of Populism (Oxford University Press 2021). Mark Philip Bradley and Mary L. Dudziak, eds., Making the Forever War: Marilyn B. Young on the Culture and Politics of American Militarism Culture and Politics in the Cold War and Beyond (University of Massachusetts Press, 2021). Jack M. Balkin, What Obergefell v. Hodges Should Have Said: The Nation's Top Legal Experts Rewrite America's Same-Sex Marriage Decision (Yale University Press, 2020) Frank Pasquale, New Laws of Robotics: Defending Human Expertise in the Age of AI (Belknap Press, 2020) Jack M. Balkin, The Cycles of Constitutional Time (Oxford University Press, 2020) Mark Tushnet, Taking Back the Constitution: Activist Judges and the Next Age of American Law (Yale University Press 2020). Andrew Koppelman, Gay Rights vs. Religious Liberty?: The Unnecessary Conflict (Oxford University Press, 2020) Ezekiel J Emanuel and Abbe R. Gluck, The Trillion Dollar Revolution: How the Affordable Care Act Transformed Politics, Law, and Health Care in America (PublicAffairs, 2020) Linda C. McClain, Who's the Bigot?: Learning from Conflicts over Marriage and Civil Rights Law (Oxford University Press, 2020) Sanford Levinson and Jack M. Balkin, Democracy and Dysfunction (University of Chicago Press, 2019) Sanford Levinson, Written in Stone: Public Monuments in Changing Societies (Duke University Press 2018) Mark A. Graber, Sanford Levinson, and Mark Tushnet, eds., Constitutional Democracy in Crisis? (Oxford University Press 2018) Gerard Magliocca, The Heart of the Constitution: How the Bill of Rights became the Bill of Rights (Oxford University Press, 2018) Cynthia Levinson and Sanford Levinson, Fault Lines in the Constitution: The Framers, Their Fights, and the Flaws that Affect Us Today (Peachtree Publishers, 2017) Brian Z. Tamanaha, A Realistic Theory of Law (Cambridge University Press 2017) Sanford Levinson, Nullification and Secession in Modern Constitutional Thought (University Press of Kansas 2016) Sanford Levinson, An Argument Open to All: Reading The Federalist in the 21st Century (Yale University Press 2015) Stephen M. Griffin, Broken Trust: Dysfunctional Government and Constitutional Reform (University Press of Kansas, 2015) Frank Pasquale, The Black Box Society: The Secret Algorithms That Control Money and Information (Harvard University Press, 2015) Bruce Ackerman, We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution (Harvard University Press, 2014) Balkinization Symposium on We the People, Volume 3: The Civil Rights Revolution Joseph Fishkin, Bottlenecks: A New Theory of Equal Opportunity (Oxford University Press, 2014) Mark A. Graber, A New Introduction to American Constitutionalism (Oxford University Press, 2013) John Mikhail, Elements of Moral Cognition: Rawls' Linguistic Analogy and the Cognitive Science of Moral and Legal Judgment (Cambridge University Press, 2013) Gerard N. Magliocca, American Founding Son: John Bingham and the Invention of the Fourteenth Amendment (New York University Press, 2013) Stephen M. Griffin, Long Wars and the Constitution (Harvard University Press, 2013) Andrew Koppelman, The Tough Luck Constitution and the Assault on Health Care Reform (Oxford University Press, 2013) James E. Fleming and Linda C. McClain, Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues (Harvard University Press, 2013) Balkinization Symposium on Ordered Liberty: Rights, Responsibilities, and Virtues Andrew Koppelman, Defending American Religious Neutrality (Harvard University Press, 2013) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Failing Law Schools (University of Chicago Press, 2012) Sanford Levinson, Framed: America's 51 Constitutions and the Crisis of Governance (Oxford University Press, 2012) Linda C. McClain and Joanna L. Grossman, Gender Equality: Dimensions of Women's Equal Citizenship (Cambridge University Press, 2012) Mary Dudziak, War Time: An Idea, Its History, Its Consequences (Oxford University Press, 2012) Jack M. Balkin, Living Originalism (Harvard University Press, 2011) Jason Mazzone, Copyfraud and Other Abuses of Intellectual Property Law (Stanford University Press, 2011) Richard W. Garnett and Andrew Koppelman, First Amendment Stories, (Foundation Press 2011) Jack M. Balkin, Constitutional Redemption: Political Faith in an Unjust World (Harvard University Press, 2011) Gerard Magliocca, The Tragedy of William Jennings Bryan: Constitutional Law and the Politics of Backlash (Yale University Press, 2011) Bernard Harcourt, The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order (Harvard University Press, 2010) Bruce Ackerman, The Decline and Fall of the American Republic (Harvard University Press, 2010) Balkinization Symposium on The Decline and Fall of the American Republic Ian Ayres. Carrots and Sticks: Unlock the Power of Incentives to Get Things Done (Bantam Books, 2010) Mark Tushnet, Why the Constitution Matters (Yale University Press 2010) Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff: Lifecycle Investing: A New, Safe, and Audacious Way to Improve the Performance of Your Retirement Portfolio (Basic Books, 2010) Jack M. Balkin, The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life (2d Edition, Sybil Creek Press 2009) Brian Z. Tamanaha, Beyond the Formalist-Realist Divide: The Role of Politics in Judging (Princeton University Press 2009) Andrew Koppelman and Tobias Barrington Wolff, A Right to Discriminate?: How the Case of Boy Scouts of America v. James Dale Warped the Law of Free Association (Yale University Press 2009) Jack M. Balkin and Reva B. Siegel, The Constitution in 2020 (Oxford University Press 2009) Heather K. Gerken, The Democracy Index: Why Our Election System Is Failing and How to Fix It (Princeton University Press 2009) Mary Dudziak, Exporting American Dreams: Thurgood Marshall's African Journey (Oxford University Press 2008) David Luban, Legal Ethics and Human Dignity (Cambridge Univ. Press 2007) Ian Ayres, Super Crunchers: Why Thinking-By-Numbers is the New Way to be Smart (Bantam 2007) Jack M. Balkin, James Grimmelmann, Eddan Katz, Nimrod Kozlovski, Shlomit Wagman and Tal Zarsky, eds., Cybercrime: Digital Cops in a Networked Environment (N.Y.U. Press 2007) Jack M. Balkin and Beth Simone Noveck, The State of Play: Law, Games, and Virtual Worlds (N.Y.U. Press 2006) Andrew Koppelman, Same Sex, Different States: When Same-Sex Marriages Cross State Lines (Yale University Press 2006) Brian Tamanaha, Law as a Means to an End (Cambridge University Press 2006) Sanford Levinson, Our Undemocratic Constitution (Oxford University Press 2006) Mark Graber, Dred Scott and the Problem of Constitutional Evil (Cambridge University Press 2006) Jack M. Balkin, ed., What Roe v. Wade Should Have Said (N.Y.U. Press 2005) Sanford Levinson, ed., Torture: A Collection (Oxford University Press 2004) Balkin.com homepage Bibliography Conlaw.net Cultural Software Writings Opeds The Information Society Project BrownvBoard.com Useful Links Syllabi and Exams |